Deep Cover RCMP

this is things police see firstand accounts with your host Steve gold welcome to the podcast that interviews active and retired police officers about their most intense bizarre and sometimes humorous moments on the job I am fact am Steve G old Ginger face coming at you thanks for being here everybody excuse me thank you for being here everybody thank you for uh finding the show and all the binge listening that’s going on truly appreciate it um exciting news uh for me and hopefully for the show as well uh been working on something I couldn’t really talk about for a while uh because I was told I couldn’t but I got contacted a couple months ago by a uh executive producer working on a show for investigation discovery and also streaming to um HBO Max it’s a show about uh people committing crimes while naked they they got all this video from around the country of cell phone footage and security footage and all these things and they wanted people to comment so I got an email and uh it’s one of those emails get you don’t think is really real you look you read it and you’re like H this doesn’t seem like it’s real I get a lot of emails to my show email about um people selling things or wanting me to join their Network exclusively or possible ad Partnerships all kinds of stuff comes in and sometimes things like this come in where it just it’s kind of surreal it’s I don’t know so I end up calling this producer um sapria and super sweet knowledgeable professional person explained the whole thing to me I did a video interview um with them and I got the gig so I just recorded a a whole season of this show and it’s going to be on uh it probably is already airing by the time you’re hearing this but November 21st on Investigation Discovery in HBO Max and I just did a bunch of commentary for it never in my life would I have thought that the podcast would get me on television uh nor was I really trying to do that but uh it did and I said sure why not um if it’s going to be more exposure for the show even better they said the network said I could have under my name they would put host of things police see so I’m hoping that points people here to the podcast and I’ll show you a quick um a quick little video the trailer for the show here we go tonight think you’ve seen everything the guy’s running naked think again exposed naked crimes all new series tonight at 10:30 on ID so there it is that that’s what I was on and they said um they said that I did a good job that they liked my contribution and Dr Drew and my wife Susan here we want to show you something this is what just 10 lbs of body fat looks like we want to drop this that guy that was the uh widget I was using for uh to show you guys that um so they said they did a good job they said that the show they have high hopes for the show and if it um if it does well and people like it then there could be four or five seasons of it so I don’t know if I’ll be invited back but that that was kind of what they were alluding to so uh very cool uh I was excited to do it and um like I said shocked to get the email I hope you guys check it out I hope I don’t like too much of a jackass I I haven’t seen any of the recording or how it came out or anything yet because it hasn’t hasn’t gone on TV but uh investigation discovery and hpo Max check that out guys today we have a fantastic guest we have a Canadian which I always like to have on always gentlemen always very polite just just all around good people I think uh have you guys know from my past stories with going to Canada and having experiences with Canadians I’m convinced that they’re all uh just good people so I’m excited to have him he’s done uh a heck of a career and he continues working um in parallel work to law enforcement but he’s uh retired RCMP police officer with 30 years experience former Chief of Police with four years experience he’s also a financial crime expert with combined 50 years experience and the author of The just released best-selling book undercover in the Shady world of organized crime in the RCMP um hell of a guest let me bring you Gary Clement Gary Steve first of all congratulations on your new gig pretty excited thank you yeah I’m excited SL nous just to see uh you know to see how it looks and all that see if they I’m always afraid first for the first like week of communicating with them because they send you a release and the release basically says like whether you suffer humil ilation or you hate it or whatever we can do whatever we want with the footage we have of you which is kind of terrifying so I was thinking is this a cop gotta show they’re GNA get me to say things and be like see the the cops AR evil and racist or something like that but um no it was legit so I’ll take it right good on you thank you sir um hey man I didn’t set up your uh do you have an Instagram uh yeah I do I have to send it to B okay I’ll just put uh I’ll just put your name at the top just for the YouTube people I put the name at the top with the Instagram I couldn’t figure out which Instagram it’s actually Gary Clement two hours in Gary and then C ment at Gary Clement with two hours in Gary all right does that look right uh the spelling of Clement is CL get rid of the I’m just a cop uh I can barely read There we go got nailed it all right uh 30 years RCMP I don’t think I’ve never had an RCMP officer on the show I’ve I’ve been um the carrots been dangled before like hey I know an rcpm guy that might come on the show then they kind of um I don’t know is there policies for active guys that are pretty strict well yeah the the RC m p then that’s part of their problem and and we can discuss that but the biggest problem with the RCMP it’s become far too secretive T far too political and uh failing miserably on a lot of fronts trying to be all things to all people ah that stinks yeah that’s um that’s a story for a lot of large agencies all around North America just um kind of being crushed yeah RCMP I always thought it was so cool the mounties you know with the they’re like part to me like being an American they were like um part uh Trooper part game warden um part Outdoorsman you know type of deal and they have the cool red coat with the brown boots it’s just it’s a good-looking organization anyways well I I iconically and from tradition I mean Canadians they identify with the RCMP red surge but unfortunately uh it’s rosecolor glasses that I think have got us into this mess that we’re in today yeah yeah um Gary so when you were in just before we get into the questions I’m curious investigating organized crime in Canada versus the US um in your career did you see is there a big difference or is there anything that stood out that would be would contrast from the US when you do investigations like that absolutely nothing in fact a lot of them had tie overs into the United States the last big one I did while I was still employed uh was in partnership with US Agencies so I mean the the organized crime transnational criminal groups they exist in United States they exist in Canada and they don’t recognize borders and so they’re has to be that cross-pollination yeah that makes sense I’ve had um other Canadian coppers on and they said that um even like the Bloods and the Crips and stuff somehow exist in like Toronto and Ontario and and it’s like um they’re not even they’re not even connected in this case they’re not even connected they just sprung up from culture so they’ve created their own Bloods and crypts and it’s like man that must be so annoying for just for your street cop to be like the influence of America has created the the Bloods and Crips here well if you look at I think you’d agree with me if you look at our the Hell’s Angels and the Outlaw motorcycle gangs um you know when I started in 73 they were street thugs that’s all they were they’ve now transcended into what I would call sorry bud no problem that scared me scared me too they’ve transcended into organized crime in a big way uh transnationally and from that if you look at it what we’re looking at today is um an inability because we you know that border isn’t recognized by the criminal groups but it’s sure is by law enforcement and that creates a lot of impediments and when you look at them they’re set up now and I think it is about 28 or 29 countries so if you look at their reach today uh those are the type of things that law enforcements dealing with and the other side of the coin I think you’d agree is you know when I started in the 70s computers didn’t exist that does really show my age but uh we’re now dealing with generative AI we’re dealing with stuff that I don’t think any of us ever thought would be dealing with so the skill set that’s required and the time that’s required to investigate these uh because the bank robber today is the individual sitting behind a desk it’s not the one going in with a a shotgun or an automatic rifle and so that’s what law enforcement’s confronted with today so it needs that very high level specialization if we’re even going to come close to putting a dent in what we’re seeing on the streets and the other thing which is the part that probably prompted me really to push this book out Steve is that I I spent time three years in Asia I was the uh liazon officer with law enforcement over there with the Triad Bureau in Hong Kong and I learned a lot about how uh Triads and and Chinese criminal groups were infiltrating North America and a bit of an aside on that uh this would have been about 1993 I was at the Asian organized crime conference which was taking place in Las Vegas and I met with senior our senior officials and Senior officials at the f FBI and the deputy uh uh in charge of the FBI said to me well we don’t have a problem with Asian organized crime and I I still remember looking at him I said are you for real and he said no seriously we don’t have it and I said well I guess if you don’t look you don’t have the problem but I can tell you you do have the problem and they exist it’s just that we as the sort of the white anglosaxon don’t understand asian-based organized crime but it’s here and it’s going to impact all of us as it does today absolutely and I can I can attest to that I I can’t talk about it but I’ve been privy to some very large ongoing investigations ran by the Chinese Mafia and they’re just it’s just underground it’s not I mean like you were saying about the bikers in their infancy it was all about fist fighting going to concerts causing problems being scary but when they get organized and they figure out how to make money all that’s bad for them arrests and raids all that’s bad so so they go when they get quiet is when you know they’re really up to something you know exactly exactly and you know we’re we’re in an age today where I think we and and I say it’s a wakeup call for all of North America we I I really believe that a lot of our politicians on both sides of the border border have had their head in the sand when it comes to China uh in my view China has been operating a disruptive war against North America for some time and if you you know people don’t believe it they just have to look at the fenyl crisis where all the precursors are coming out of China we had over 100,000 deaths since 2021 um I think United States about 100,000 a year Well when you look at that and you look at the loss of health or the impact on our health systems the Imp impact and loss economically what it is to the country and the big one is and I know it’s no different in the US but I’ll look at Canada we’re having a hard time filling positions in the Canadian military well stop and think of a 100,000 people between the ages of 1934 have all died they those are individuals not all of them but a good portion probably could have been attracted to the military just like the us we can’t afford to let this continue but from a Chinese point of view this disruptive War they got going they love it I I firmly believe that if with the right pressure put on you’re dealing with the communist country China could shut down the flow of precursor drugs if they wanted to but if you look at it their Bel and Road initiative it it wouldn’t play into their initiative and we sadly our politicians have looked at it as being an economic benefit to have this relationship with China I would argue that I think it’s an economic benefit to some of the politicians more so than the country and we are now paying a hell of a price for it and as I say in my book you know I I actually am concerned about the world we’re leaving behind for you know our children our grandchildren because I this is a terrible impact on our our democracy and you know I I I use Robert Kennedy a lot a quote that he did and I think it really bodess well in the society we’re in today and it says every generation inherit a world it never made and as it does so it automatically becomes the trustee of that world for those who come after in due course each generation makes its own accounting to its children um I think that’s really what we’re this is all about um so the purpose when I wrote my book Stephen I thought the timing was right I’ve been encouraged to write it probably for 20 years by various journalists because I’ve done a lot of interviews over the years and uh I just thought the timing was perfect also at 70 years of age I figured if I I’m going to do it I better do it but you know I highlight how I had the opportunity to infiltrate organized crime I reached some of the highest levels of organized crime in British Columbia tying right back to uh Luci and rard in Montreal tying back to katron um I did one in 1996 remotely tied in the genevi crime family where we took out a whole group and you end up having this thorough understanding of how organized crime operates and uh I wanted to impart that so people really appreciate that we’re on a path of which I don’t think any of us want to be on and we’re on it because the average citizen unless it directly impacts them they don’t give it a second thought the sad part of it is it impacts every one of us and you know whether it be construction where organized crime has infiltrated it and you’re paying an extra $1,000 a month for Paving Etc that’s all going to hit our tax dollars so I believe it’s hitting big ways yeah it’s kind of like being a redhead I could make the uh comparison to like a miscolored little Freckle on my back doesn’t bother me at all should I get it checked out should I pay attent probably years go by looks a little worse did I get it checked out nah it’s a little bigger it’s kind of worrying me still didn’t get it checked out finally it’s melanoma and they have to do a big surgery to get it out which I’ve had two with them but that’s kind of like it’s like cancer this right this influence that that’s infiltrating us and we’re so our lives are so soft and cushy made by the former generation that we’re not going to notice until it’s really in our face and you know this the whole thing with China when you talked about that was interesting to me because they you’ve seen on on social media how they there’s two versions of Tik Tok there’s a Tik Tok we get which like rots your brain and hits all your dopamine receptors and makes you incapable of having an attention span past 3 seconds then then there’s the the Tik Tok they allow their teenagers to have and it’s 100% educational and it shuts off at 900m because that’s bad to look at it past 9:00 P p.m. or whatever it is um right I mean they like you said they’re a dictatorship they can turn things off and on without a big argument in Congress like they they can just get things done so if they wanted to stop the drug flow if they wanted to um you know impact our our Tik Tok or you not use it as a spy tool of course they could do it but they’re you know we’ve gotten it’s like that Meme out there it’s like uh bad times make hard men Hard Men make good times good times make soft men soft men make bad times it’s like that cycle like of every great Empire of Rome and Greece and exactly and it’s like for people like you and I or people who are listening to this podcast that see it and see it revealed and we see our crumbling but can do nothing it’s it’s horri it’s INF infuriating right well it is and and you know for me I I’ve really started to push this in about the last 18 months to 24 months because I you know as I said I we’re going through our proceeds of crime money laundering Act is going through its five-year review and I wrote quite a long paper on it and will be called to testify before the House of Commons but my final line in in it is if we don’t do it now can we afford another five years of inaction and I suggest to you that five more years what you see today will be a fraction of what we’re going to see in five years yeah we’ll be drafting um you know pink-haired lady boys into our military and being like why are we losing these battles well precisely Gary yeah yeah go ahead please I was gonna you I was going to ask you the first question unless you got something else to add first no go ahead please all right sir um can you take way back to a young mounty um on the job your first hot call the first call that you got that you can remember that really got your journaling going well yeah and actually it’s cited in my book and it happens to be my probably the first time that I was allowed out without a training officer and and you have to understand at the time I went out to Langley Detachment British Columbia we only sporadically had a training officer but uh they monitor pretty closely I was sent to my first motor vehicle accident and I arrived on the scene and what it was is this individual had rolled over his pickup truck on the railway tracks of the main line and his arm was pinned under it oh no anyway so I went down and it was quite apparent the guy was three sheets to the wind but we also knew a train was coming which I called into the Detachment to try and get it stopped they the joke was I didn’t need the radio because they could have heard me from 10 miles away y radio and then the individual said to me look I don’t want to die lying under this truck so if the train you can’t get the train stop take my arm off now I was turned just 20 at that point and wow that’s young I did go and get a fire axe because we had an axe in the car I did take it down and of course you know if you put your ear in the track you can hear the train coming and I had a doubt whether I would have been able to take his arm off I’m not 100% sure but I can tell you that the light on the train lit up the accident when it stopped wow and to this day I’ve always said would I have done it uh thank God I didn’t have to make that decision um I’d like to think that I would have saved his life but then I probably would have ended up in a huge lawsuit so who knows people think that’s a crazy story people think they know what what police work’s all about you know but if anybody told you when you were in Academy this will be one of your first calls the decision that may be in front of you to hack someone’s arm off or not yeah I mean you wouldn’t believe it if somebody told you i’ say right never gonna happen but it does and you know and then another one where I was my first undercover I just finished undercover training and I had been a drug officer in Langley which is a at that time was a small town in British Columbia it’s a big city today and I was out doing some buys of opportunity um again probably being young and egotistical as hell which uh most young cops are I thought oh I can out talk anybody well by the time I got introduced to the third person it happened to be somebody I had arrested and they jumped on me so quick and even though I had I was heavily involved in fighting competitively in karate I didn’t get a chance because I had stuffed my hand in my pocket so they couldn’t get my gun because I was carrying had it inside a leather coat and uh say I took a beating would be an understatement and this was uh the the and it’s as I said it’s in my book was our first young female officer and it it just solidified my belief in female police officers because she came in she was all 5 foot4 jumped on the back of the biggest one and almost took his eyeballs out I think with her fingers and had them under arrest in no time of course I went off the hospital but uh I I’ll never forget that and realize that you know what uh this is because you have appreciate when I joined it was a male domain but that’s when I realized you know women have a a place in law enforcement and will do a more effective job in many areas wow thank goodness she was nearby huh well she’s like a badger yeah no kidding but uh you know it’s one of those things but it’s I’ll tell you it was a valuable lesson Brian because you learned that working undercover is risky I think anybody will tell you that but you have to make sure that the risk you take that you’ve really thought them through and you put in the right cover uh in the event something goes wrong and that was a it was actually a cheap lesson for me to learn and I think it really did uh pay dividends for me down the road um I know my bosses at the time when have disagreed with me because I I was invited to down when I was working under in Vancouver to meet Sunny Barger and uh I wanted to go I was dealing with this very high level organized crime figure wanted to take me down and introduce me and he wanted fought in Partnership we’d start running some drugs back from the border the problem who is Sunny Barger Gary he used to be the head of the Hell’s Angels oh okay yeah so uh anyways we’re going to go down to California but the it was a decision was taken that a great idea but they couldn’t cover me and they weren’t about to have me go down there without cover with another major organized crime figure so we never did go through with it but uh if if you would ask me at the time would I have done it the answer was yes uh because I think that’s as you know the male brain doesn’t totally mature until you’re 27 and we still believe we can walk on water and I wasn’t 27 yet yeah yeah well that would have been a hell of a bust yeah it would have been but uh it was neat we took out some pretty heavy players and I I think the best part for me coming out of this brand was I learned that I I learned about organized crime from organized criminals but the other thing I learned at that time we didn’t go after the proceeds of crime and I realized after going through a number of Trials having had a contract on me having to live under protection that we accomplished nothing because these individuals at that time got sentenced but they were to keep they were able to keep all their assets they had gleaned from work or being involved in in criminal Enterprise for years so really what are you accomplishing so that’s when I became a an avid uh supporter and really push that we started taking on proceeds of crime which uh we had no legislation at the time I formed alliances with the US and learned from some of the best at that time and and was able to get a program going in Canada that’s awesome when when you first get into the RNC R rmcp um what is the academy like well it’s when I I I guess in the 70s I would call it boot camp it was you know very similar to a lot of probably B Rec military training with the exception that you got law uh you were taught laws and how to react you’re taught you were taught your powers of arrest and how to make arrest but you know you did all the other stuff you did learned how to street fight you lifted weights you ran uh you marched you was it like four or five months then H six months long wow even back then six months that’s great and uh so you know it you did and and although it doesn’t exist today uh as you know very much in the military boot camps your your instructors call you everything but a human being and degrade you to the nth degree it can’t it doesn’t occur today I look back and that was the best thing that could have happened because when I finally got out it I didn’t care what anybody said to me yeah that’s that’s the whole point I had heard it all and I was thick skinned enough to realize so what you can say whatever you want in fact I used to go into schools when in my early years and do school talks and I’d write on the board right off the bat and put Pig Pride Integrity guts and sincerity that’s excellent um yeah it’s good to hear that they they had such a legit Academy even back then the states vary so widely it depends on the state really you know they the states pretty much controll themselves but now it’s um you know I think the one I went to in uh I don’t know 15 years ago now was was 800 and something hours so it was like 5 months or 21 21 22 weeks uh paramilitary they yell at you and Shout at you and all that stuff um in in Canada from what I understand from the coppers that I’ve had on none of them being um a mounty they they leave their guns at the station unless they get special permission from the chief is that same with the r rmcp yeah absolutely the same I mean I I I carried mine a lot because I was under threat so I but I had to have special authority to carry it um I know it’s it seems almost foreign to anybody from the United States um I mean if you’re in a plain close unit and and working where you’d get a call and you’d go immediately out to something you would have your gun at home but if you’re in uniform it was locked up and left at the station interesting yeah I never understood that because to me it’s like you have all these highly trained Canadian coppers the good guys there’s crime in Canada violent crime why not have those guys armed all the time you know just makes sense but different culture I guess yeah it’s totally different I mean if you followed anything in Canada there’s a big push to get away do away with a lot of the Firearms the hunters are up in arms and you know we unfortunately we got a government that is trying to sell it as it will get some of the gun crime off the street when you and I both know it’s elicit guns that are the problem it’s not the the legal hunt and his weapons or the legal Sportsman that’s going out to to shoot but uh they’re trying to sell it and we’ve got this woke Community that’s buying into it so yeah we’re we’re not far behind you in Massachusetts there there’s a bill on the floor right now that’s pass the house in Massachusetts that essentially they’re trying to eliminate carrying a weapon like they wanted they’re still going to issue permits but they’ve made it the bills proposed that um you can’t carry your gun on any property any place there isn’t a sign that says you’re welcome to so they’re reversing the law now the law now says if someone posted a private business no firearms then you have to adhere to it but now they’re saying they have to post a sign that says you can bring your guns in which who’s going to who’s going to post that you know like that’s that’s a weird it’s a weird sign and then they also there’s no the original bill they drafted had no cutout for law enforcement so they’re saying even off-duty cops who are carrying under their Shield um will have to follow the rule these same exact rules which of course cops had a problem with and the chiefs of police all 300 Chiefs of police in Massachusetts voted the bill down and gave all the reason like you just said like the whole this isn’t going to help crime because licensed gun owners aren’t committing the crimes but they passed it anyways now it goes to the Senate so it just seems to be um kind of the way we’re going which is which is sad but that’s neither here nor there Gary we can talk about the the woes of our country uh all day long um Gary can you tell us about a strange or bizarre thing you dealt with on the job you know one of the probably the most bizarre things I dealt with was actually doing an undercover by and it just shows how people get caught up in this and it it involved a young girl uh young she was probably 20 and I we were out doing a major T project and we were asked by the detachment this was out in British Columbia and the Detachment is the uniform side of the house if we would have a look at this barid who was you know young but she was supposedly putting out piles of cocaine and anyways I went in and because I being an undercover operator and being fairly experienced and one night I was in there and I said you s is there anything else here beside what’s being sold at the bar and anyways we ended up long story short we got into a discussion she gave me a sample of cocaine which came out at 98% I ended up with a good enough story and said I would take uh I think at that time was three pounds which was at that time was fairly significant anyways I expected because we knew she was her brothers were somewhat connected to the biker so I figured she the bikers would show up she rolled up in her old car with three lounds of cocaine on the front seat of her car and she was in a hurry because she had to go to choir practice because she was one of the league singers in a choir and I just literally shook my head um you know the people to get involved in this are everyday people and what possesses them I’ll never know wow yeah probably easy money you know yeah they dangle the carrot but man that’s it’s s sad to hear a church goer is doing something like that yeah it is I mean uh you know they everybody thinks undercover operators or cops have a hard are hardened and a hard heart and could care less so it’s not quite true you look at some and I bought off of some people that I felt sorry for but uh you know that’s unfortunately they’re in that side of the house and I was on this one yeah I’m sure it is easy to like overly empathize with these people where it’s like you can always walk it back and do the 30,000 View and go this is a bit this is like a felony they’re knowingly breaking it they’ve gotten themselves into this you can always just reset with that but you get to know them a little bit their circumstance and you know how they were raised or whatever brought them to this this point in their life you I think that’s a sign of a good cop to have some empathy you know well I think you have to I really do and I like you said I do think it makes you a lot better police officer absolutely especially if you can get put yourself in their shoes and kind of get get inside their head um Gary can you tell us about your most intense or terrifying call you want on I had several but uh a couple that I had one was uh uh again I was still in uniform and I was on my way to a a motor vehicle accident and uh anyways uh we got a call that an armed robbery had occurred and uh they gave us the pointer vehicle anyways the pointer vehicle happened to be in front of me and uh anyways he pulled over uh I called called for backup which was 30 minutes away got out of the car the guy came out flying I was able to grab him get him in a full nelson get him up against the car uh he had about a six foot knife in the back seat which he never got to and I was able to hold him and in a Full Nelson and I literally had the a dent in the roof of the vehicle because I was so terrified if I let him go because he was bigger than me that I was in trouble so it was just pure fear that allowed me to hold on and I I’ll never forget when the Corporal finally showed up at that time I would have kissed him anywhere and he he comes up and he said what are you doing I said if I let him go he’s gonna kill me that’s a long time to hold somebody ah tell you my my fingers were shaking and my knees were shaking but you know people don’t realize you that happens I’m not the only one this has happened and you don’t usually talk about it and I probably wouldn’t have but I brought it out in the book so it’s one of those things but it yeah it takes a few years off your life when that happens yeah I think a lot of people until they experience something like that or are getting a tussle in uniform with all their gear on um they think they have a little more fuel in the in the tank than they do oh very much so and we you know as I said that usually when those things are happening you’re usually at a young age and you think you can conquer the world but you you learn real fast I don’t care how tough you are or how good a fighter you are there’s always somebody better yep and I think the the most humbling experience is when you deal with your first female who’s half your size but just on a rampage yep and before you know there’s four of you one on each limb going where where is she getting the strength exactly no exactly Gary you said you had another one you might share yeah one of the others was kind of we we took down this Biker Shack and they had a they had set up in a chicken Coupe it was a drug rape and it was this guy took off running and you have pry sure there was they had killed the breaker so I took off after him and you know the length of chicken coop as you can IM they’re fairly long I finally caught up to him and grabbed him my hand barely went around his muscle on his bicep and I was reaching up so I lowered my voice voice and I said don’t do anything or you’ll regret it so he turned with me we started walking out as has the light started commit he looked down at me and he said son if I had known this you’d been in big trouble good bluff man oh that’s awesome I wanted to ask you about um you mentioned before when you were in the smaller City doing undercover buys yourself as a cop do do you guys have did you guys end up cultivating CIS did you guys use them or is there is there different rules no we we had uh that was one of my fores in my when I was on The Drug Squad I had an abil especially after working under you have an ability to I think uh relate to people so I was able to bring in a lot of informants and uh yeah they’re the lifeblood of a lot of uh you know investigative units if you if you handle them properly can you take us through the what a uh what in Canada what what your agency used to qualify an informant well basically you you would have to do a write up and a background on them first of all to see what their criminal past was Etc um you would have to verify if they were providing information and you have to understand what is their motivation for doing it that’s probably one of the first things you have to write in what is their motivation some of them it’s just pure greed they want to get paid um I hate to say it but they’re probably the best the ones that are trying to work off of beef not so much they’re not as good as we’d like to think they are and then there’s those that um are trying to play Both Sides they’re they’re they’re trying to milk you for information while giving you a little bit and those are the ones that probably are the most dangerous um and I’ve run all three of them I’ll tell you that right now um I actually had one individual I was able to run we knew he had uh was suspected of a murder of a young girl but he was given really high level information on pretty sophisticated organized crime and uh but I I have to admit I dislike the guy to the nth degree I thought he was uh devil’s son and uh but it was a way of keeping track of him at the same time and he actually ended up uh while I was handling him murdering another girl and I was able to identify that he should be the suspect which was sadly dismissed by the major crime investigators and I wrote on it for 40 years and he was finally convicted five years ago through a a Cold Case investigation um and uh I’ll never forget the sergeant calling me up and said do you really believe this guy did this and I said I don’t believe it he did it I’ve been telling if I had a state out in British Columbia I would have investigated but I went to Ottawa so I could so it you know 40 years uh better late than never but and it’s really detailed in my book wow that’s really cool good for you that’s great finally get some justice um Gary yep go ahead you were saying uh about the CI the ones that work the best I thought that was interesting because they’re um I get it the ones that are kind of trying to work something off like they’re they’re they’re against their will they’re kind of and then they might be also the ones that are hedging themselves like they want to give you info because they want to get the charges Dro but they also don’t want to they don’t want to betray their fellow criminals or exactly so they’re trying to do both but when I was at um lepd backgrounds I had a candidate come through that like in the initial meet and greet when we sit down with them and go over their application uh laid on me her dad’s past of being an informant and he had laid on her that morning before she came in so she was like distraught over it she’s like and she I mean she provided receipts of payment from the DEA a bunch of other big LAPD agencies and I’m happy to say she is on the job now um with a different agency but uh the guy’s past was he originally had like come over from Cuba and got swept up in that whole thing for doing crimes and man he was making bank I mean he was giving good information she uh even gave me his handlers names the special agents and local detectives so everything um and I mean the checks he was getting though 10,000 15,000 right like and but like you said he was a producer so he’s making his livelihood off it he’s gonna go all in he’s gonna he’s gonna get results exactly but I mean your agency might have the money for that because it’s large but like if you’re talking about a smaller city or town we’re going to be dealing with the junkies and the people cutting deals no I do realize that we did have uh you know we fortun we had a pretty good budget for it uh we used in the end uh because of evidentiary changes you anybody that was working for you were directing had to be dubbed an agent and had was a compellable witness so obviously they became individuals that we had to pay a lot of money to and relocate them that’s when our uh witness protection came into play and we’ve I know over the years we’ve had to relocate a lot of people yeah yeah absolutely and then you said towards the end of your career you were doing a lot of um and like we all are now because I work for a small agency and it’s like these internet crimes you have to investigate that are like um like for the most part they’re almost impossible because there’s no there’s no um the FBI the state police our agency isn’t going to have the time or resources to investigate like a small one it might be impactful to somebody’s life but it’s not like the crime of the century you know like a little little extortion like hey I got a new picture of you I’m going to send it to your friends if you don’t give it to me half the time these people are in like North Africa or in another another country anyways but it’s created a real problem for us and we we actually do have under nespin um it’s a collective database so information sharing um we can report them to this database and if they get from what I understand if they get enough reports that are similar with the same names and like fake numbers and fake emails then a a higher level investigator might come along and scoop them up and try to try to get the guy uh work with work with interpole even go to another country but it’s got to be like a ton of them but it’s a horrible feeling as a as a street cop to go there and tell the people like there’s gonna there’s going to be no there’s probably going to be no justice here you just got you got to be more careful well and that’s that’s a sad part of it because there’s so many of them today and uh I after I left placing I had a private investigative firm and uh a consulting firm and I came across all kinds of people some of them very sad cases and the problem is as a private investigative firm to investigate some of these it’s going to cost money so you know you person the first thing they’ll say well you guarantee you’re going to get my money back well you and I both know that’s not going to happen right and so the problem is you know and I had I had two ladies that got swept up in the the love scam and uh you know between the two of them they lost 1.7 million oh God that it’s a massive amount of money I did some preliminary investigation at no charge ended up tracing uh the uh emails over to Nigeria well you know once you get to there you look at it you say yeah I could probably go over there I could probably get a private investigator that’s uh little off on the side and uh we might be able to do something but there’s no guarantee and it’s GNA cost a ton of money yeah yeah exactly um man the the ones I see that I that really bother me the most is I’ve had the ones with the people unbelievably people seems um 65 or older that never really got online with computers like never really learned them get tricked and it’s sad because they’re good like wholesome people but they will they will literally had a lady on while with the guys on the phone go to the bank take out five grand convert it to bitcoin send it to them thinking this was like a first it was a treasury agent then then the guy said he was one of our police officers yep and he and he masked the number so it looked like it came from our agency and even the bank teller the bank said uh I don’t want to get in your business but what are you taking this money out for because it it sounds like you’re being scammed and she was like I’m not being scammed I’m speaking with a police officer and it was like she came in and her husband was sitting behind her just like this like he couldn’t believe it CU he was at work and but that stinks and then I the ones that really really upset me are the the young men that are being prayed upon for like yeah pictures of their ding-dongs like not it it’s like these guys and kind of going back to the culture what we were talking about young people aren’t getting out there as much they’re not like interacting with each other almost so they’re they’re living their lives online looking for love online and they’re desperate because you know young men from 15 to till you’re dead are you know driven sexually pretty pretty strongly and they are they’re like they’ll the they’ll get the picture then they’ll flip it on them say hey surprise give me 50 bucks well you and I both know that’s just that’s just a beginning Y and I’ve talked about it before but depending how old they are if the person’s a young professional it it almost never ends because they even if you tell them you know what I’m G to I’m G to bite the bullet on this one you’re going to send it to my mom my sister my Aunt I’m going to warn all them block them well now they got your boss’s email cuz they have your digital footprint and they’re like hey how about uh Bob Smith your boss how would he would like to see your your junk oh my gosh and then you switch jobs but they’re still able to find you hey how about your new how about your new boss how how about 15 grand now it it’s I mean it’s an absolute nightmare yeah no I agree with you and those are the people you want to find in just dope slap you want to throw them in a prison cell you know yeah no very much but unfortunately that’s the new era we’re in and then now with his ability to clone and make it look like a youw you uh I think it’s going to get worse and and people need to realize that uh when they’re on a computer they need to make sure they’re secure and unfortunately the new generation today just doesn’t realize how vulnerable they are yeah they really don’t um it’s it’s hard to it’s hard to regulate and we’re very we have a 14-year-old girl and she has a you know she has a phone but it’s like we don’t there’s no free roaming the internet she doesn’t if she needs something for school she tells us what it’s going to be there’s certain um we’re we’re Christians so there’s certain Christian apps we let her use which is fine but even then and she’s a really good kid even then she will even with us like in the room and she’ll she will She’ll follow the Rabbit Trail and Beyond something else and we’re like who whoa what what are you looking at well I just saw this and I clicked on it it’s like oh this is how it starts you know it’s like absolutely um it’s hard to protect him but just got to do your best uh Gary can you tell us about uh a positive or heartwarming situation yeah I’ve had lots I guess um probably you know probably the one that for me was most heartwarming still and I you know I’ve already told you about it but was finally having a a guy name of Gary Taylor hand when charged with the murder of a Girl by name Monica Rose Jack uh I happened he had been picked up for rape and was in cells one time uh at uh after uh the investigation of the young girl and I saw him in cells and I said to him before I died I would make sure that Justice prevailed so for me um that really was something that was very heartwarming I mean I’ve I’ve seen the dark side more than I’ve seen probably the positive side I I worked with a a colleague in uh uh Toronto uh undercover for six months and uh you know I actually when I was on my honeymoon I stayed with him and his wife and Ed up he ended up getting uh charged with first-degree murder throwing his wife off a balcony and it found out he had torched his house and he had actually when we sent him down to H Columbia to learn to speak Spanish He formed an alliance with the Colombian started laundering money so oh my gosh and that was when I realized that anybody can be dirty and where there’s smoke there’s fire and whatever you do don’t pull the W over your own eyes if there’s something there in front of you deal with it was there any time when you had a relationship with him that you now look back on and go hm that was a little weird uh yeah several I mean uh he was he was had about three more years service than I did but one of the things that I always question was we would go to D after I there was a threat put on me near the end and so I stayed out uh outside of Toronto with him and his wife we went out to dinner every night and we had wine and the best meals now you got to appreciate I was a consle in the RCMP we weren’t making a pile back then uh it sort of took off after that and my prum wouldn’t have covered the cost of my meal and he was picking the tab up on the saying all along that it was uh he was doing so well selling antiques it was no problem and uh I look back now and one of the things that came out was we did a quarter pound heroin buy which was fairly significant amount on the streets in Toronto at that time and when we took them down we referred to them as the Jewish connection and I remember talking to one of the ones we arrested and he said look Gary I’ll admit I I had heroin and I sold it to you guys but we never got paid and of course your first reaction is yeah right nice [ __ ] but I believe today they didn’t I believe it was probably Kelly pocketing the money wow yeah that would only make sense and did did this guy escape to Columbia or did you guys oh no he served life yeah yeah such a betrayal man yeah he’s not the only one as you know we’ve got good and bad in every profession uh lawyers doctors uh and police officers and and that’s what a lot of unions and policing need to accept not everybody’s doing the right thing yeah absolutely when and when I the time I spent at the background unit in La um I thought it was interesting because I asked one of my buddies there Dave and he’s been on the show twice fantastic guy he was a homicide detective and worked for vice um but he also worked for internal affairs and I said you know I come from smaller places so Internal Affairs would be handled by like the lieutenant or something there there was no there was no unit it was just a supervisor and I said uh how was that like you know cuz you all you see in the movies is you got busted doing something and then they you know your punishment was you have to be Internal Affairs like that BS line you hear I said that’s prob I know that’s probably not true but like what made you want to do that and he said honestly goes we take pride in it he said we take a lot of pride in keeping LAPD officers that shouldn’t be on the street off the street he said I I always said Steve that uh I’ll go the extra amount and take down a dirty cup over a criminal because a criminal I can go after anytime a dirty cop can do a lot of harm to an organization absolutely yeah I had Wayne milleron retired ATF and he was one of the um head investigators on the boss uh when the Boston fires were going on right turned out to be a bunch of firefighters and cops uh involved and uh he said that was so gratifying because it’s like it’s such a betray such a betrayal of the trust and we have problems you know what I mean we we’re already the bad guy you know it’s like and apparently that did not uh tarnish firefighters reputation at all because they’re still widely loved yes yeah I agree with you on that one oh man I spent some time with the fire department in musquash um is that right New Brunswick I I didn’t work there but I I was dating a girl and we went up there to visit her friends uh we went to St John and what a cool city that was and the her friend’s husband was um long shoreman down at the Docks and um this girl’s dad was the chief of musquash fire department and the cool thing about musquash fire department is it’s like completely funded by the nuclear power plant so it’s a call firefighter Department with like all these tools I was gonna say all these toys so he’s hey you want to go down to the fire station I’m like sure I’m you know we’re just drinking laats or whatever and um we go down there and there’s a bunch of cold firefighters there all younger guys they’re all training they have like tubes set up with the room smoked out and they’re going through and taking their mask off and stuff they’re um and once they finish the course they’re having a beer I’m like this is a way to train right here absolutely actually I when I went first went to Langley uh uh my wife actually I she was my girlfriend at the time her father and her brother-in-law were both members of langing fire department and I would I became a volunte care firemen as well I got permission and so I uh I know what it’s like and that there is definitely a difference between a firefighter and a police officer yep absolutely well sir the the final question I have for you is um uh real important one to a lot of listeners a lot of people listening um are thinking about being a cop or or are in the process both Canada and the US um and they really value what you guys have to say on this so could you give some advice to new officers or candidates getting into the into this work well first of all I’ll start off and say I do my career over in a heartbeat um I you’ve got to go into it with for the right reasons if you’re going into it because you think you’re gonna make a big pile of money find another career it’s not the case yeah uh you got to go in it and you know I guess it’d be sort of like going in the military you you really want to serve and you want to serve your community and if you go in with that headset in mind and you hope that you can make a even a slight difference um you’re probably on the right track um I tell I’ve had lots of calls from individuals that want advice should they go into policing and and that’s the advice I give them like ask yourself honestly why why do you want to do this don’t don’t get caught up in that you’re going to drive a car with lights on and you’re going to wear a uniform and carry a gun that’s the wrong reason um go in it with the that you want to improve and the other thing I would strongly suggest recognize right off the bat regardless of the career you’re going in but especially in policing be willing to accept that it’s an ongoing learning process never stop learning because things change so dramatically and the best cops I know still today are those that have gone out continue to learn take night school take various courses learn about how to deal with uh psychological events and and deal you want to B to uh uh basically work with people regardless of the situation and common situation down and that takes experience education and a lot of patience absolutely words of wisdom great advice Gary there that is so true too unfortunately it is not the career where you will ever really be able to get to the point where you go I know it all I know the job because I been 16 years in law enforcement and to this day still having powwows with people to figure out a certain situation you know because there’s so many elements of crimes there’s so many opinions the DA’s office how they look at it judges um there’s just it’s just not there’s so many variables there’s no nothing’s cut and dry about police work and you cannot be too proud to pick up the phone and call a trusted colleague and go what do you think about this am I on the right track with this for these charges or how would you what would you do with this investigation does this seem kosher because it is it’s it’s uh you know it can be annoying it can really annoy you especially after you have years in the job and you’re like oh my gosh how do I handle this one this is ridiculous and you’re gonna confront something unique every day yep absolutely sorry for the noise Gary that’s my water pump I my prestigious studio is in the basement I’m going to edit that out the best I can but um hey let’s uh let’s talk about the book undercover inside the Shady world of organized crime in the RCMP um the impetus of this and uh how it’s going so far and all that well the impetus as I said at the outset was I’ve I’ve done interviews and been very open with the media for years um I have some very good friends in media and they they’ve been encouraging me to write it because they know about uh some of this uh work I did in working on unorganized crime um I started and I sort of put it on the back burner about 18 years ago and the reason being is I wanted to get a message out and I didn’t think just talking about what I did was going to achieve anything other than you know basically turn around P myself in the back and say look what I accomplished that’s not the intent of the book I wanted to show that I’m a small small town boy in a farming Community went into the RCMP capable of getting into organized crime and then capable of of understanding what’s wrong with uh our society and where organized crime is really thwarting a lot of what police are trying to do and and where politicians are falling far short and so having achieved U enough rank in policing that um I’ve got a you know a number of people now that are listening to me I really believe the timing was perfect especially when I’m seeing what’s happening with China and with transnational organized crime I’m sure you’ve heard Canada is being doed the May tag of the north we went through the Cullen commission inquiry in British Columbia I actually was testifying on that and gave advice to the commission and that’s when I realized that you know we needed to get the public educated and understanding and I hope from that there some pressures put on and uh you know our political Masters accept that yeah they have had their head the S we’ve got to put some investment back into policing um we’ve got to accept that we’re in bad shape right now from a a point of preventing organized crime and even going so far as terrorist financing I know that uh there’s very strong indication that you know we’ve got various groups that have funded hamus and uh what went on in Israel I mean and I I just shake my head why can we why are we allowing that to happen and so I think with what looking at and what I’m seeing in the United States I think it’s time that collectively uh we start to get back the upper hand and and because I think we’re capable of it we’ll never solve it I’m not naive enough to believe that but we can be far more effective than we are today I love it man sounds sounds incredible where can people pick it up Barnes & Noble and Optimum publishing I’ll I’ll put a link for whichever yeah you can put them both but they as well they can get it at uh Amazon uh it’s on Amazon and you know I’m really flattered it’s hit the best selling list in two areas so hell yeah far far better than I anticipated I’ll tell you that that’s awesome sir congratulations for that everybody check it out the link will be in the show notes Gary it was an absolute honor to have you on I really appreciate you taking the time well thank you Steve and keep up what you’re doing it’s I think it’s beneficial to everybody well thank you sir I certainly will I’m going to do the outro here do you can you hang on for just like two or three minutes sure can the great Gary Clement guys really great stories from Canada I love it I I feeling he’s got some more too so maybe we can drag him on here another time down the road um today uh today right now is the time in the show where we thank the patreon sergeants that’s a sergeant level patreon member that keeps the boat afloat and helps pay the bills what I’m talking about is the Great and Powerful Andy bigs great Gad Boy Adam mihal the great Chris June Gary Steiner the great Jake Pineo John Shoemaker everybody Lauren Stimson the handsome Lane Campbell Seth right James Rose everyone the great Tony fahe the admirable Ben Peters Braden Walker the great Jason Lao everybody Mike win Sasha McNab the Great Scott minkler Tammy Walsh holding it down at dispatch William James long that’s Deputy William James long to you thank you very 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