Should Cops Use Pot and Stories From The Arizona State Police

This is Things Police See, firsthand accounts with your host Steve Gold. Welcome to the podcast interviews act and retired police officer about the most intense, bizarre, and sometimes humorous moments on the job. It is I, Old Ginger Face. Not that you’re aware, but this is the second time around. I’m starting to uh have real questions about the uh hardware I purchased for this show, spent a lot of money on. It keeps failing me, but here I am, guys. I’ll stop my bitching. Um, thank you for being here. Thank you for finding the podcast. Thank you for all the binge listening. Apologize for my voice. I am in the midst of um some kind of cold trying to get over it. Uh, you know, I was at work all week doing doubles and my family was home sick as hell and I was like, I’m escaping this. Uh, sometimes that happens for me, but uh, not this time. My last my last shift at work, pounding headache, throat was on fire. So, I’m on day three, but um, I’m dedicated to you. I’m dedicated to the audience. I didn’t want to skip uh an interview and I was excited to have this guy on. So, without further ado, let me bring him on the show. He’s got over a decade in law enforcement as an Arizona State Trooper. He did four years active duty for the Air Force. He’s the host of the Blue to Green podcast. Without further ado, bring on the great AJ AJ Jacobs. AJ. Hello, sir. Hello, sir. Good to see you once again. We’re back now. Again, we’re back. We’re back again. Um, yeah, I’m excited to have you, brother. And, you know, I’m I’m always looking for guests and, um, there’s a lot of there’s a lot of coppers kind of getting into the space now and being on social media and and helping people and sharing their experiences, which actually really benefits me. But, um, you came up on my radar. I don’t know if it was the algorithm or I think maybe we’re in a a chat together, um, with a bunch of other coppers. I can’t remember. Okay. Duh. Yeah. Yeah. And, um, I was like, let me grab this guy on. And I thought when I saw your show it said blue to green. I thought it was like oh guy was a cop then he became then he went in the army or you know he did something like that. I didn’t think it was security because you know they have green lights. I’m like I don’t I don’t know what it is. And then I saw um it was pot like you’re you’re a marijuana advocate and which is interesting to me and made me want to talk to you even more because I’m not really educated on the science of how pot helps people. I think we’ve all been hearing for probably the last 25 years like it’s my cataracts from my back. Like it obviously it has some qualities that that help people. And also I actually went to high school with a kid who was a journalist in the Pacific Northwest and he had stage 4 pancreatic cancer and he did this protocol. I forget the guy’s name but you actually eat like the it’s like a syrup of it’s almost like hash. RSO. RSO. That’s what it is. Simpson oil. Yes. Yes. So, he’s on the Rick Simpson list for remission of stage 4. Like he he said they went in to his pancreas and all the tumors were like little grains of sand that they could just wipe out. So, there’s something to it. Incredible. And it’s something to do with the endocrone system and all this. But he said he still has moments where like he has scares still, but he’s been able to keep this at bay for years now, which is That was the first time I saw it and I was like, whoa, that’s that’s insane. Like, we should definitely be studying this more. Now, AJ, if you’ll allow me, I’ll tell you my experience and my hang-ups with pot. Um, I I want to say one thing in that in that time period, please. You don’t know you need cannabis until you need cannabis. Okay, please go on. Gotcha. So, as a cop and just as a guy with friends that are like in their 40s or older that smoke a lot of pot, the thing that like just gives me the ick about pot is like one thing is a lot of people like wake and bake and then depending on what kind of person you are cuz when I was in college, I tried pot and I wasn’t a pot guy like or or I didn’t I obviously you don’t know what you’re doing. You just take what’s given to you, right? And like anxiety almost near like hallucinations. I was like I’m a beer guy. I’m a life lifer for beer. Anyways, so but I have friends that like they have a high tolerance, so they just like you you can’t even tell they’ve been doing it so long, but they wake up in the morning, they get high, then they drive their car, they get all day long they’re high and they smell like old pot and it’s just like it’s just like um I don’t know. It’s just I don’t like it. It’s like dude, I don’t like drink beer all day long. But that so that’s one thing. And the other thing is I I do I am concerned about the studies they’ve done like I’ve read like loosely about like the youth like in in probably any chemical like when you’re developing they’re saying they’re studying people now because pot’s legal so it’s like it’s everywhere the youth that when you get into smoking as a kid it can screw up develop brain development and and things like that which I think is worrisome which which like any other thing like alcohol or whatever like I just think it’s the pot thing’s so wide open now where it’s like it’s just like there’s a lot of people are like it’s totally harmless. It’s fine to do all the time. There’s no like I feel like there’s no like the governor is off and like anytime my family and I are in a bigger town or a city and we walk down the road, you smell pot. Like people are just smoking it out and it smells like [ _ ] and it’s like I got to tell my kids like, “Is that a skunk?” I’m like, “No, those are people smoking pot.” Then they want to know what pot is. And those are the things that bother me, but I’m I’m not short so short-sighted that I can’t understand that like it clearly has some compounds in it that are that are beneficial. And just because they they didn’t benefit me doesn’t mean that they can’t help other people. And obviously you have a huge knowledge base on that. So school me up a little bit on it. Well, thank you for having me on the show. Um, no first and we’re gonna we’re going to do the war stories as well, guys. Don’t worry, we got the war stories coming. Um, I always want to start off real quick from a place of honesty and your show is geared towards those that want to enter law enforcement. And I always want people to know that my time did not end the way I wanted it to end in law enforcement because of my own screw-up that I took full responsibility for. So, I just I always want to start from a place of honesty so that when your your viewers listen like, who the f is this guy? And my my this ties into the cannabis which is that I didn’t know that I was having mental health issues which is why I enjoy being invited on to talk about the war stories what affected me and all that. Sure. Okay. So now which led me to my cannabis use. So the first part that you said is you know the the people that wake and ba can get up and just constantly smoke and this or that and all that. I am 100% in agreement that it like any other drug whether it’s sugar or you know um alcohol whatever the case is it’s the relationship to the drug it’s not the drug it’s the relationship to the drug now again I am excluding like meth and heroin and fentanyl you know obviously obviously know fentanyl does have medicinal uses you know and all that type of stuff but you know I got it when they scoped my butt they gave me some fentanyl felt great good times went down like a So my personal take on everything that you’ve said and and I’ll break it down a little bit is that I’m 100% for the responsible use by adults to consume. Now when it comes to the medical that that would be for the recreational side. When it comes to the medicinal side of the house, there is so much information that we don’t comprehend or understand about the cannabis plant because of the fact it is still a schedule one narcotic. So 38 or 40 states Right. I was just say 38 or 40 states have some sort of a medical or recreational program. Yeah. And what’s happened is that you have you very much are there’s deadlock against each other right now for for pro and against. I mean you’re talking about old school type uh prohibition mindset. Now the problem with the medicinal side is because it’s still a schedule one you in fact cannot study it because they’re stating that it does not have any medicinal properties. So there is um any any um requests to study it has to go through very very rigorous process. And one of the biggest problems was was that the study they were doing the the weed that they were using was terrible weed. It was grown out of a a a place in Mississippi. I think it was the University of Mississippi. Don’t quote me. But they were getting this this was the the the government pot and it was terrible. So they weren’t unlocking the full benefits. So, moving into today’s world of, you know, lots of medicinal purposes and uses and all that. Um, it’s you’re going to have 90% anecdotal stories. And this is where I come in and I have the conversations with the cannabis users and state, why are you using it? What are you using it for? Now, if you just want to smoke it to get high, okay, well, your drug would be whatever the drug is. It wouldn’t necessarily just be cannabis. You would be sniffing glue. You would be huffing paint. You would be abusing alcohol, whatever the case is, that’s just the addictive mindset. And again, the an inappropriate relationship to the drug. And when you look at the medicinal side and you start hearing the stories about pain, okay, and everybody’s like, “Oh, everybody has pain. They use that as an excuse.” Well, you’re right. I mean, I have herniated discs and aused spine now. Um, the the the uh the the chronic issue is the pain that that causes. You know what I mean? I’m not going to use cannabis to cure my my hernia my herniated discs. It’s not a thing, but it’s the long-term usage of it that is significantly safer for the body. The number one thing that I will always say is that the DEA, the drug the drug enforcement administration has their street drugs of abuse comes out, populates like every two years, maybe every four years. It’s a refresher on all of the drugs across the country. Go to the marijuana, go to dea.gov, of go find drugs of abuse their their their uh book go click on marijuana and it states directly on it there has been no deaths from ingestion alone I’m not talking getting in your car you know doing so although you may have a panic attack and think you’ll be the first right so yeah right like Joe Rogan has a great skit about that like you’re not going to die but you think you’re going to die now and again all of that comes back down to the paranoia and all that I am again I’m not one of these people that thinks that everyone should use it and you can’t you know, you can’t be under the influence and I always give the the difference of there’s a difference between medicate and recreate. Sure. I can I can only talk about, you know, my medic my medication and that’s the fact of my back pain. And on a side note, um the I I did not discover I had ADHD until I was 35 years old. And then I started and out of law enforcement and I I was using cannabis and all a sudden I was like, “Holy crap, I can think. I can like, you know, focus on things and have in-depth conversations and all that type of stuff. So, it’s it’s about getting to the bottom of what is actually in the plant because they’ve already identified 400 components. Another science side note, in the late 80s or early 90s, uh the federal government funded a study to show the harmful impacts of the cannabis plant. They discovered accidentally the endockinabonoid system, I think. Yeah. Yes. that the we discovered the fact that the human body has uh adapters that the runner’s high has now been discovered to be the same uh you know on a molecular level whatever as THC. So they used to think it was uh they used to think it was what would they call it endorphins or whatever the case was but no it’s your body releasing it. So, and our bodies just have a natural, you know, the lock and key type system, you know, with synapses and all that, but it’s been it’s been discovered to help with so many different things. And it’s hasn’t been fully studied because again, it’s still schedule one. So, I know that was a lot of a lot of rambling and a lot of talking, but my again, when it comes to use the medicine. I use it personally for my back pain and then also for like Okay. Yes. It makes you creative. It makes you happier. It makes you think good thoughts and it makes you, you know, look at things a bit differently, which was the unintended consequences in a positive way for me. Interesting. So, if if I can side note from that just real quick, and I won’t go down the war story path. I’ll do that. But cannabis helped me get through the situation that was post-traumatic stress in my brain. And we’ll talk we’ll talk about that. But it it was cannabis and it was at one particular moment in my life where I was consuming cannabis and had a had a mental breakthrough and it was like holy [ _ ] there’s something there’s something really to this and that’s when I chose the path to go down really embracing it as as a medicine and started learning about it and getting into the cannabis world. So more and more and more so which again I want to say thank you for being a police podcast and allowing me to come on and talk about it like yeah absolutely I’m interested. So many and so many people don’t. They’re like, you know, the same rule should apply as alcohol, not 8 hours before work. This is I’m I’m just my little side tangent here. And being a consumer of cannabis now on a regular basis, I just can’t figure out why we’re demonizing it. I I I can’t figure it out. I think there’s a big frustration with cops that I see where they’ve given us, at least in Massachusetts, they’ve given us no tools to enforce it. So, I mean, catching somebody with pot has been a joke for the last 20 years in Massachusetts. It’s been like whatever. Like, if the person’s halfway polite, you might just take their weed. That’s when it was illegal. You know, you write somebody um you arrest somebody for like a a dime bag, you’re kind of like the the not only the other cops, but the clerk magistrate is kind of like, okay, hard ass. you know, but now now it’s like there is such powerful weed now. Mhm. And we don’t have they they in recently even in Massachusetts recently they’ve like they’ve started like making the DR cops less and less legit in court. Now they kind of want a doctor to testify. Right. Understood. Understood. An OUI drugs case. So we because mass is very I mean you could look at it either way but it’s they’re very into um it’s very low conviction rate state that just the way it is. So they’re they’re so you have somebody who’s like all banged up they can even tell you like I I smoked like three giant bulls with my buddy. I’m so baked right now and you know they were weaving down the road or they’re just not paying attention and you pull them over and you cough them up. you do some like little minor things you can do, but there’s no like chemical test we can do. There’s no so there really the there there’s really no no real good evidence you can solid like certified evidence you can get on them. So cop so a lot of cops don’t try they right they’re like because there are people who get high and they um and it’s not it’s usually they get high then they have like two beers or something and then they are like what their motor skills they’re wildly they’re they’re operations inhibited like they shouldn’t be driving. Um but for us on the road it’s like what am I going to do? I’m going to do this thing and then I’ll go to court get egg on my face and then they’ll they’ll kick it out. You know that I think that’s a frustration cops face. the the and the thing that you said is that the the the word in you know I’m not going to get like there’s a big fight right now with the word intoxicant and all that type of stuff. We we know what we’re talking about if somebody’s under the influence of something. The the fine motor skills and all of the stuff that happens with alcohol is just not the same as cannabis. You know what I mean? Like your your speech is not slurred. Um you know the the joke is is that you know somebody’s driving while high because they’re doing four miles an hour down the freeway. you know, it’s it’s so there is a delay. Like I will never ever say that like there’s not some sort of a delay. Um, and I also I I believe it that people who smoke too much or consume too much of anything that infect affects them shouldn’t be driving. And it it’s again it’s one of these things where you’re I don’t I don’t believe in a per se limit. So I I do not I’m sorry. Yeah. In a persail limit because of the fact of as a daily cannabis consumer like 0.08 would be the per se limit mass. Just so people thank you for clarifying that. Yes. I’m sorry. In regards to like alcohol. Yeah. If you are above a 08 blood alcohol concentration, you are presumed under the influence of alcohol, right? Where cannabis doesn’t have that because when they take the blood, you know, 12 nanogs per milliliter, well, what does that mean? 100 milligrams per milliliter. Well, what does that mean? And so, it’s very much a case by case. And again, I don’t agree with per se limits and I I’m unaware of who does have one, but as daily medicinal cannabis patients who consume to live a better life, you know, and that’s the other part, too, like the the the quality of life of cannabis users who are in chronic whatever is significantly higher than if they were using opioids. That that studies that’s a great point. I mean, we need to get away from those things. And this can fill that gap then, right? How how can you talk against it? Well, and yeah, and so it’s one of these things where it’s like we don’t know what impairment actually is at any certain level in cannabis. And I agree, man. Law enforcement needs tools. I’m standing on I’m standing on the mountain saying, “Let’s do some green labs. Let’s let’s draw some blood. Let’s, you know, let’s get some good accurate tools.” But again, like again, you know, your consumption is going to be different. Here’s the biggest Sorry for my rant. No, alcohol. Alcohol is a poison, right? Alcohol is a poison. It attacks your brain. It affects everybody pretty much the same because it’s poisoning you. When a when a person consumes cannabis, it doesn’t matter whether it’s, you know, oils under the tongue or if they’re smoking it or if they’re vaping it or whatever the case is, ingesting it into their body. Uh this is where certain, you know, strains do certain things is that what your endockinabonoid system may be lacking, mine may be full of. So when I smoke this strain, it has these components in it. My body’s going to attach to these but not those. So that’s where it gets very it sounds like super snotty and snoody and like oh you smoke the wrong strain but it’s actually true but it makes sense. I mean hence we don’t have a test correct because everybody’s anatomy is different. That’s that’s exactly the point I’m trying to make is that it’s like every it’s a plant for God’s sakes. It’s just a plant. So it grows and it it makes what it makes as Yes. there’s there’s good geneticists that can make it grow more CBD or more this or more that and I did want to also you touched on the fact of like you know there is super powerful weed out there and I agree I 100% agree with you and I agree that I myself have had incidents where I have definitely consumed too much and I’ve had those paranoid moments in my life now being a little bit of a seasoned user on it. I know what to do. I know how to act. You know what I mean? I’m like, “Okay, you’re not going to die. We’re good, right? Let’s just go let there’s simple things that people can do and and one of them is like you can just take a big dropper of CBD just straight CBD will actually help bring you down almost immediately. Oh, interesting. Yeah. So, a a good a good CBD will help with that. Like my wife works in the uh emer in an emergency room and she keeps telling the doctors like when they come in for this, you know, it it there is a bit of psychosis that happens and hallucinations that can happen. I’m like, just drop a couple couple hundred milliliters of CBD down their throat and they’ll be good to go. They haven’t reached that point yet where they can medically do that. So, I don’t want anybody to think that that’s that’s a practice that’s happening. But, but it works. Yeah. It’s funny you say that, brother, because like I was talking about years ago in mass, they legalized weed. And one of the funniest calls you would get would be like two 60-year-olds and they’ve not smoked weed since like the 70s and they’re like, “Let me let us get some weed and they would and back in the day because there was no quality control and you were probably getting the brown frown. You weren’t getting high THC.” They would share a joint. Well, the same couple shares a joint and they’re out of their damn minds. And you and then they would, you know, go in the ambulance cuz and it’s all like real basic anxiety stuff like I feel like my heart’s racing or I feel like um I can’t breathe right or and you know exactly what’s going on. It’s like brother you went too deep like you had you had too much pot. Like this isn’t pot from 30 40 years ago. This is they’re actually cultivating it now. But another before we move on to the war stories, another thing I want to run by you when I was in California obviously there’s dispensaries everywhere and you can get all kinds of stuff. So, I had a wicked problem with my upper back to the point where like I went to a masseuse and the masseuse was like, “Geez, like next time you get a massage, you should just get it done on your shoulder blade area because there’s like you got some big problems in there. I had these knots and it would hurt up to my neck like behind my ear.” Did you have chest pain? Um, no, I didn’t have chest pain. Okay. But, um, yeah, they said it was pretty common. They said that whole thing. And so, I they’re like, you know, try some CBD. So I started talking to pot people and I at at the same time I was reading the article my kid I went to high school with about him curing his stage four or putting it in remittance and um so I was curious I went to a dispensary and I’m talking to them and they’re like well and and I at the time I was like I don’t want I just want CBD like whatever is like doesn’t have THC and they’re like well you can try this this or this but they said the problem is you’re not going to that you’ll get 5% of the benefits if you get something with a little THC in it. The way they work together on your endocrine system is the magic bullet. Since you’re going to spend $50 on the CBD tincture and I’m telling you, spend the same amount of money on one with just some THC and those knots in your back will melt away. And I thought that was fascinating because they the um you know how it is marketing. So it’s like sure they’re like you can have all the benefits. CBD will you know you you’ll grow your hair back your you know your you know your your uh your your pants will be tight. Your wang will get you know whatever they’re telling. Um but they’re leaving out that part. They’re leaving out the part where it’s like it’s actually like a symbiotic relationship those two chemicals. And I thought that was fascinating because I just saw so many ads on the internet about how CBD is going to solve all your problems and it’s all mail order stuff. Excuse me. It’s not this stuff with THC. And that’s the that seems to be the magic key. You you still will get there’s Okay, real quick. Um there’s isolate. Think of an isolate uh distillate a distillate or an isolate. You know, it’s just the just the CBD, just the THC. There’s broadspectctrum which has some of the stuff and then there’s full spectrum and I’m talking on CBD right now. Um full spectrum CBD is going to be CBD that has up to the federally government allowable amount of.3% THC per dry weight per volume per dry weight or whatever the case is. Okay. So you’re correct. So now again the bigger the bottle the more in it. you know, 500 mgram bottle is going to have.3 could have up to.3% of the THC. And what you’re talking about is called the the uh the entourage effect. And the entourage effect is it you you’ve spelled it out perfectly. You I’m not even going to rehash that that symbiotic relationship that and it’s also the other fact of there’s so many other components in it other than just CBD and THC when you get full spectrum. So full spectrum. They said that a lot. Yes. CBD Isolate is going to just have just CBD and I I love just CBD. I love isolate. There’s uh Rescue 1 CBD that I’ve been communicating with that I you there they’re firefighters. I can’t remember where they’re out of. Maybe out of Florida. There’s a lot of lot of that stuff out of Florida. But yes, there’s many different aspects to it. And again, it’s a plant and there’s so many different processes and all that type of stuff. So there’s it’s so in-depth. I could talk about this stuff for hours because I love teaching the public and I absolutely 100% believe that it has a place in law enforcement at the end of the day when you just got done pulling that dead kid out of the car and you need to actually relax and focus and de-stress and medicate, not numb yourself from the pain and actually process emotions. Yeah. And that that was the thing that like I said I I I I know you want to move on to the other stuff too, but like the number one thing that cannabis does for me is it actually connected me to my emotions. It allowed me to process things that had happened from my time in law enforcement. My my my military service was like I was locked in a skiff and didn’t go anywhere doing anything fun. So, you know, I didn’t I didn’t have any trauma there. They broke all their promises to you, right? Um, but my trauma came from my my my post-traumatic stress and all that stuff and whatever you want to call it. Um, was all from law enforcement and then post law enforcement and then starting to consume and use cannabis. Um, that’s what really helped me and that’s what I really started to see the benefits and started to understand like, oh, now I get why I why I was such an [ _ ] Now I understand why I was not good to my family because I wasn’t processing, you know, from the previous years worth of trauma. So that’s and I appreciate and again like I really do sincerely appreciate you allowing me to come on and talk about this aspect of it that nobody gets to talk about. No, you know, it’s super interesting and again like I want cops at the end I want firefighters I want, you know, level one trauma nurses and doctors to go home at the end of the day and smoke a joint as opposed to slamming beers or you know drinking a glass of whiskey. So, you might be a good guy to because I was sitting around with cops the other day and um you know, not necessarily against pot or anything, but they’re like we hear what other states are doing. They’re like, “Oh, New Jersey now cops can smoke pot.” They they’ve kind of are ignoring the the federal whatever. And people been people have been ignoring the feds for since they were established. So, it’s not that’s not that big a deal. But anyways, their their employers are saying you’re not going to be like fired for this. Um, as a guy that is in the no, what would you, if you’re writing a policy, like there’s an alcohol use policy, coming to work sober and all that, what would be the time frame you think you would nail down for pot use? Proforce law enforcement, the best damn cop shop in the nation. Whether you’re purchasing for an entire agency or you’re an individual officer looking to buy firearms or duty gear, these guys are the best in the biz. Pro Force has law enforcement exclusive pricing and is the place to be buying your guns and duty gear. They carry all the top industry brands and the guys and gals that work there understand exactly what law enforcement officers need. Special discount link tps.proforceonline.com. Um it’s u deeply discounted items just for listeners of this show or you can go to proforceline.com and shop the whole place. Place is unbelievable. You can also visit Prescott, Arizona in person or Brea, California in person to get hands-on with the gear. All the context up is in the show notes. Thank you, Pro Force. Eight hours would be I would just go exactly like alcohol. I would do exactly like alcohol. Oh, sure. And again, but now that again does come back down to the effect you got to know your body and all that stuff. Well, yeah. You can drink a case of beer and in eight hours going to work at a be a 005 still, you know. Right. Right. So yeah, no, I would just give it the simple, you know, and again where if you have someone such as, you know, a professional who’s using it for at the end of the day relaxation, yeah, you’re not going to be hitting it hard and stuff like that. You’re going to be mellowing out, chilling, watching a good movie. So yeah, I would give it just an a standard eight hour break in between last usage, you know, in between last usage and then, you know, just till your work. Okay. Interesting. You know, when I went to um police academy um years ago, there was uh this town that was in the academy as a regional police academy, and they still had in their union contract that they could be a 0.02 while on duty cuz they wanted somebody at the union president, somebody all those years ago wanted to be able to go home for supper and have a beer for supper. And they and the kids like, “Yeah, it’s still in there.” I’m like, “Wow, I’ve never even heard of that.” We won’t talk about SWAT operations out in the desert. We won’t talk about those days, I’m sure. And they’re probably a lot like the uh LAPD Vice guys who are two drink minimum guys. I mean, two drink maximum. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Two drink maximum. Um AJ, uh that was great stuff. Thank you. Thank you for that. Um can you take us way back to when you were a young trooper on the job? The first call you went to that gave you adrenaline dump? Yeah, I can do that. And I was thinking about this and it’s um it was my first 45 minutes on duty. So, you know, do do the do the academy, do the post academy, you know, do all that good stuff. Get, you know, graduate on Friday, you know, get to drive your because we were state troopers, we got to take our patrol cars home. So, I remember academy or everything graduation and then okay, you know, next Monday you start your you start your new FTO. You got to go pick up your new FTO. So he only lived a few miles away from me. So drive from my car to his house and I think I had met him like one time. Oh, real quick. My dad was on the department for 32 years. My brother was on the department for I believe 24 years. He just retired. Legacy. Yeah. So at the time, so my I have no more ties to to my previous agency, so I can talk smack. But anyways, um no, I’m just kidding. Um, so I go and I’m I’m we’re standing on the driveway, you know, I meet him and shake his hand and and he’s just kind of going over, okay, you know, we’re going to do this and you want to make sure you have your spare key on you and just blah blah blah, you know, just kind of good just walking me through the stuff. Sure. So, and he goes and of course my patrol car was in an old POS. Um, but it was my first baby. So, he goes, “All right.” He says, “I’ll drive.” I go, “Where’s the first place you go? We’re going.” He goes, “QTT.” I said, “All right.” So, we go to QT. Now, remember, we were troopers. So, we started in our driveway. Our shift started in our driveway, ended in our driveway. I we only went to the station for paperwork. Um we didn’t have roll call. We didn’t have anything like that. We go to QT. We get a coffee real quick. We’re driving down the road and all of a sudden a an officer gets on the radio and says, “Hey, I’m on a stop eastbound 60 at wherever in East Mesa and he goes and I just had a motorcycle fly by me at like 140 miles an hour if anybody’s east of me.” And we were way far east. We’re like, “Well, [ _ ] Let’s go look.” So we’re up on top of the We’re in East Mesa. So, we’re up on top of the Power Road off-ramp and this bike comes a screaming by and he no exhaust on it. I remember this like it was yesterday just screaming, “Oh my god.” And it was only about maybe a little further, but it was a mile or so. So, he sees us and then he cuts over and he exits the freeway. He did not see us at that time. He cuts over. He stopped at the ramp. He stopped at the red light and and my FT goes, “We’re going to He says, “Let’s go try to stop him.” And the pursuit policy back then was if they exit the freeway, you’re done. All done. You know, you’re not going to chase a crotch rocket ac across the ground or, you know, across the city for that. Well, he he sees us coming up. He blows the left. He makes or he blows the red light. He makes a left. He makes another left. He gets back on the freeway going the other way. All right. So, code three, lights and sirens. We are now full-blown. We are now calling pursuit. It’s, I don’t know, 8:00 in the morning. Phoenix metropolitan area, rush hour traffic. We’re calling pursuit. Everybody’s getting into it. And there’s a bunch of motor officers that are like pulling traffic along the same stretch of freeway because it’s rush hour traffic. So this I mean it’s like holy [ _ ] I’m like 45 minutes into my first onduty anything and we’re now doing 110 mph in pursuit down the freeway and big street roads out there. I bet. Oh my god. The freeways especially. Yes. Yes. And u so we’re just screaming and then now the dude a motor officer is up on top of one particular over overpass. the the the the suspect goes to flee and exits that overpass, almost hits that officer. Officer dumps his bike to not get hit. Boom. We have aggravated assault on a police officer. So now, I mean, come on now. You know how that goes. Yeah. So, the chase is now on. So, now we’re calling city units. We’re calling the city of Mesa. They’re trying to get their air unit up. Um and end up the motorcyclist is coming down either country club or school in Mesa, I forget, on the northern part. And another officer was coming the other way. Again, we’re kind of closing in and circling the area and all that type stuff, looking for him and all that. Y and uh an officer catches him at 120 mph on radar in a school zone where a lady was pushing a stroller through the school through it. Right. Exactly. Exactly. So, I mean, so now we’re like, “Okay, we’re we’re done.” So, we ended up, you know, however much time had passed, the guy we end up catching the dude, he dumps his bike, and now he’s running on a wall of a a tall apartment complex and then slips and falls off the wall. we go grab them and all that stuff and tackle them and all that. And there was two things that were going through that my mind. What do I do? Like I got out of the car. I remember I got I got to keep my hands free because I got to grab stuff. So I I I got my hands free and I go running up and we’re like, you know, doing the polyester pileup on the guy. But the number one thing that I was thinking in my mind was um I hope nobody because again I’m a fresh graduate cat academy graduate. I’m just sitting there thinking, “Oh my god, like we got like 12 officers here. The sergeant is screaming.” Pardon? Can I cuss out of your podcast? You cool with that? The sergeant screams, “We’re going to [ _ ] bury you. You tried to kill my [ _ ] officer.” So, we get him up and scoop him up and drag him off in handcuffs. And I’m still standing there and again, I’m the rookie. So, uh, they all look at me and they go, “All right, Rook, there you go. There’s your first case.” And I was like, “Holy shit.” Like, is this like every day? They’re like, “Not really.” Like, but this was pretty cool. You know, your first time. So that was my introduction was my my first 45 minutes on duty was 110 mph pursuit down through the city of East Ma or through East Mesa and chasing this dude on a motorcycle and I felt so you know at the end of the day after we we arrested the kid and you know processed him and all that and booked him into the Maricopa County Jail. Yeah, he was late to work. Wow. That was it. No no no warrant, nothing like that. N he was late to work. his boss was going to fire him if he was late to work again and instead of just doing the right thing and pull I mean again we probably would not have arrested him if he just would have pulled over you know. Yeah. Big ass ticket and said on your way. But yeah, one of those stupid mistakes you make in life. Man, those bikes are scary. We just had a locally we just had a crash in the town just north of me. Kid broke a pole on a motorcycle and it was like some of his limbs came off. Yeah. like ju just because you’re going so fast, you’re just like a over, you know, like an over like a rotisserie chicken. I mean, I used to ride. Yeah. Yeah, I used to do uh CCS league racing and I back in my my late teens, early 20s and I used to have a sport bike. Um left for the military and then came back and then when I came back and was was a trooper, there was two or three accidents that I was, you know, I I responded to where the rider did everything right, unfortunately had all the the appropriate gear on and still ended up dying. One one became an neck down what is that quadriplegic and then the two others died. And I that was I sold my bike. I haven’t ridden since. I’m like, I’m good. No thanks. Yeah, they are enticing. Like I got a couple buddies who’ve been riders for years and I take their bike for a ride around the neighborhood. I’m like, man, it is so fun. But when you get out there with the cars and cuz they look at you and I do it myself. You go to pull out, you look real quick, it’s small, so you your brain registers bicycle like you don’t realize it’s going 50 miles an hour like a car. You look at it and go, I can pull out. And that’s like one of the big accidents, people just pulling in front of bikes. And I went I went through Have you ever heard of force science? Yes. I went through their thing years ago when I was when I was still in a detective and it really taught me a few things like again just like the inattentional blindness. You we are looking for cars. So when you look you look for car you don’t your brain just doesn’t register motorcycles. So you’re like it’s not there and your brain just fills in the holes. Yep. So Yep. It’s it’s terrible. Um, AJ, can you tell us a like a very strange or bizarre thing you dealt with? I think everything was bizarre. It’s Arizona, baby. It is a little bit wild. Bizarre as in paranormal or just in just in general in law enforcement. Yeah. I mean, anything you got, throw it at me. Param paranormal. I mean, I thought you were either going to say uh something to do with meth or, you know, that’s usually like the the southwest. Oh, dude. Oh, I mean, just the meth stories. Spice. That [ _ ] was terrible. That was the worst. That was the worst like fighting thing that I got into. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Back in the day it was um what the hell was it called? Um Yeah. Yeah. whatever that stuff was called that they could purchase legally and it was just and oh bath salts too at the smoke shops and all that type of stuff. Yeah, they change one molecule and spice so it’s like oh it’s it’s unrelated. Yes, the designer drugs. Y let me let me come back to that question. Let me let me think about that a little bit one on that one. Yeah, absolutely. Can you uh tell us about your most intense or terrifying call? Yeah, I got a couple of them. Um, one of the most intense ones was one that kind of shifted the focus in which I looked at policing. Um, I was, for lack of a better terms, I apologize for the old term, I was a gear queer. So, I wanted to know how everything worked. I wanted to know how my radios worked. You know, you know that guy. I had I didn’t necessarily have all the cool stuff. I wasn’t buying all of it, but like I could tell you what frequencies our radios used and this or that blah blah blah. So, um I’m looking at my buddy’s patrol car one day. I’m like, “What is that radio?” He goes, “Oh,” he says, “I’m I’m on the crisis negotiation team with SWAT now.” He says, “So, we get to respond all over.” I was like, “Oh, that’s kind of cool.” Um, moving forward to like an hour later that night, next thing you know, there’s a guy standing on top of a wall that wants to jump. Um, he ends up uh wanting to only talk to this one particular city of Scottsdale police officer. We’re shutting down the freeway and all that. it shows up, everything’s fine, gets the guy down. But that moment kind of like that it’s leading somewhere. Um I was like, well, what do you guys do? Like what is hostage negotiation or crisis negotiation? And then they told me, okay, so I I choose to do this. I think it’s really really neat. You’re you’re it is a it is a SWAT position. You’re on you’re part of the SWAT team. Um so I go through all of the training. I do all of the things. I’m now I’m now a crisis negot negotiator. So, one night 12:30, 1:00 in the morning, um there’s an accident in on the freeway in Mesa, like I probably like Val Vista or so. And you know, there’s a couple of my other squadmates there. And then what the the my second FTO also I worked on his same squad. Fantastic dude. Older guy, just calmer, you know, let’s not run down and get one, let’s walk down and get them all type guy. Voice of reason. Yes. Yes. So, we’re we’re late at night and all of a sudden um when I would switch and become a negotiator, they would switch your call sign. I was, you know, Edward 619 on nights and then when I was in negotiation, I was negotiations 212. So, I think it was 212. Anyways, well, I’m on patrol, but all of a sudden, dispatch calls my negotiations call sign and I’m like, “Oh, no.” And I go, “Right.” I go, “Go ahead.” And she goes, “Please check your MDC. there’s a situation. So again, this is Arizona at at night 10 plus years ago. So there’s very very few police officers on the city of Globe was dealing with a suspect in a vehicle who was holding a gun to his head and threatening threatening to kill himself. They’ve been trying and trying and trying to to to break through to this guy for a little while. So they need a crisis negotiator immediately. I’m it. I’m it. Nobody Nobody across the state has has this certification or anything. So I said, you know, it’s that Superman moment. I’m I’m taking off my patrol my patrol uniform and I’m switching into my negotiations and I, you know, I’ll be negotiations 212. I’m in route. So I’m hauling ass to Globe, which is about Yeah, exactly. You don’t have to thank me. So I’m running code three to Globe, which is a city about 65 70 mi east of the valley. I’m texting uh I’m MDCing my buddy who I who I spoke about, the older dude. I spoke about him and he’s a Christian and I’m a Christian as well. And I was like, “Hey man, I said like, dude, like, holy crap, this is real.” He goes, “Remember your training. Just breathe. Everything will be okay.” So I get there and it’s a Motel 6 that’s at the like at the end of Globe. I pull into the parking lot and there is a older dark colored SUV like an old Bronco or an old Blaze or something like that pul backed in up against what would be like the motel, you know? So like the the bumper is kind of like close to the to the building. Yep. And there’s three or four city of Globe. And again, Globe is a very small town, so maybe 15 to 20 officers. I might be off on that number, but it’s a small little place, small little town, little mining town. And he’s standing there. He’s just got that gun to his head. And all all the officers, they’ve all got their rifles out, and they’ve all got their lights on, and they’ve all got the windows, the you know, and it’s it’s the typical police scene. Okay, no big deal. So, I I come on scene, I make, you know, I I talk to the ranking officer. He tells me what’s going on, and I said, “Okay, first thing I need you to do, what what intel do we have?” And I’m working intel on the way there. And luckily, again, it’s a very strange story. Basically, what happened is is this guy was just kind of down on his luck and he called his buddy back in like Idaho that was like, uh, you know, things aren’t going well. I’m just going to kill myself or whatever. So, then that buddy called Arizona police and they ended up tracking the guy down. So, just kind of a guy just down on his luck his whole life. Never really made it. Gotcha. So, I get up on scene and I go to the ranking officer. I said, “Okay, first things first, turn off your lights. What what what information do we have? like let’s let’s bring the situation down. So, he had a cell phone. This is the most miraculous part of the story is how long the goddamn battery in his cell phone lasted. Anyways, so then I get a phone call or I get his phone number and now I’m stupidly pretty much standing at the hood of the patrol cars that are at the front of him and then his truck and then the the the truck and he’s standing there holding the gun. I mean, all he had to do was that and I was done, right? So, 7 hours and 45 minutes of negotiating. 7 hours and 45 minutes of negotiating, we finally get and again I’ve I finally had, you know, uh other crisis negotiators that were showing up. My secondary ended up showing up. My captain ended up showing up. So, you know, I’m getting support services and all that and we’re getting stuff there over time. But I was the whole time and I’m like, this is the old flip phone days. So, I had just a battery pack plugged in and then my buddies handed me my my secondaries handed me another battery pack. But for and then also we ended up moving down the hill, got him to drop the gun, got him to come out of the truck. Okay, so where I’m where I’m going with the story is is that there were a couple of things and that I learned in negotiation school, which was if you made a promise, you keep it no matter what it is. And he was worried about a couple of stupid warrants he had had out had out of Idaho and not having gas money. So I said two things. I said, “Look, man, I’ll show you the fact that the warrant I said, “You’re not going to be arrested.” And I said, “We’re going to go get you some help and some treatment. I’ll show you that the warrants are not are non-exeditable.” And I said, “And we’ll get you some gas money.” Oh, no. He’s worried about his truck, too. I go, “And we also we did speak to the owner of the Motel 6.” He says, “Leave his truck here, man. We’re fine. We’re good.” So, I go to the hospital with him. My captain’s with me. My secondary is with me. The the chief of of Globe PD is also there. And uh and we’re in the hospital. And the dude turns around and he looks at me and he goes, “Thank you for saving my life. And I was like, “Okay, uh, you’re welcome.” And I turned around and like and then I actually ended up vomiting outside like just from the rush of emotions and all that. Yeah. And that was the moment that it like Yeah. I’ve got the cool run and gun stories. I’ve got the helicopters and chases and pursuits and all that stuff. I mean, I worked criminal interdiction in the state of Arizona. All I did was chase people. But but th those were the moments in my police career that like really really set the tone of what I was trying to achieve and what I was trying to do was to just help people and you know I don’t want to like save their life but you know but that was the moment that was like very impactful to me. Yeah. So surreal for someone to say that to you like to verbalize it. Thank you for saving my life you know. Yes. You might say I’m getting into this profession to save people but you never think someone’s be like thank you you did that today. Yep. Yep. the the most impactful moments I had for my career. Oh man, like I said, dude, I could sit here and tell you all the cool stories. I could tell you about when the bad guys called for help and out of the deserts and tried to ram us and all that good stuff, but the most impactful ones were the ones where I was in actually in roles other than a police officer. I was working as an EMT. I mean, I was a police officer, but put on my EMT cap and then became an EMT, you know, put on my crisis negotiator cap and was doing crisis negotiation. And those were the most impactful moments. And those one-on-one moments of like humanity were the things that impacted me the most. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Great story. I love that. I have a I have a a strange story. It it popped up into my head. Yeah. Let it rip. Okay. So, I’m on a traffic stop westbound US 68 approximately Mcccleintoch. Again, I worked nights for nine years or for seven years. I worked se Graves for seven years Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday night. So, it was it was a rocking good time and I had the most amazing squad and the most amazing sergeant for the most part. Um, I’m working I’m working just working at a traffic stop. It’s 2 o’clock in the morning and you you know the Spidey sense. You know the Spidey sense. And for those who don’t know what I’m talking about, if you get into this profession or any sort of a first responder profession, you will understand what it is. And there’s just something that happens in your brain. You’re like, “Something is not right here or something is off or whatever the case may be.” Right? I’m going through this. I go up to the car. It’s a little old lady, whatever the case may be. Zero threat. I get her on her way and I’m and I’m but as you know, I’m doing the hyper ninja like walking up to the car like, you know, whatever. And I’m still just like I’m like, am I going to be ambushed? Like something is just very very very very off. And I get through the traffic stop and I’m standing on the side of my car and again like just again like full-blown like hair standing up on the back of my head and I just can’t figure it out. And I turn around and I look and there’s a light pole. You know, one of the big tall light poles on the side of a freeway. Yep. And there was the badge number of officer Skip Frink, who was my dad’s best friend growing up, who was hit and killed in that very spot. Oh, weird. It was very weird. And I knew Skip. And I looked at that. It was the one of the stars. It was just a a sticker star that some one of the officers had whoever it was had gone by and slapped it on there at one point in time. And I just looked around and I said, “Hey, Skip.” And the feeling immediately went away and I was like, “All right, we’re good.” Yeah. Got back in my car and it was like it was just him saying hello, like a little pat on the back like, “Hey, man. It’s been a while since I’ve seen you.” That’s crazy. That’s so funny. Yeah. Usually you have those feelings. There’s like it’s not an old lady, it’s like, you know, gang bangers or there’s a gun or something like that. So in this case, you must have been like, “Well, nothing is out of the ordinary with this car, so what the hell am I feeling this for?” Oh, and and there was this was during a period of time where the cartels were hitting hot and heavy. We we knew that in the Phoenix metropolitan area, we knew that cartel members were just stopping on the side of the highway by the Arizona Mills Mall, there was this little cutout where you could walk right onto the freeway. They would stop, they dump their stuff out, they put the money in, whatever the case in, and they do a transaction right there on the freeway. So, again, like we were hyper vigilant. Again, I I worked, you know, essentially a border area for years where the the cartels, this was the cartels playground. Still is. So, yeah, we were always very hyper vigilant, all that sort of stuff. Yeah, man. Especially when you see the um I’m sure you were privy to like what they do to their local cops across the border. You find them like two of them in a cruiser with like no heads or their face is gone. I let me tell you real you know what this is a better story actually. Let me let me tell you this one real quick and then we’ll move on. I worked in addiction. I disrupted criminal cartels. You know I was out there on the highways in between Phoenix and southern Arizona. The only one at night for several years in the Phoenix metropolitan area. There was the Cassag Grand unit but they did they stopped working at like midnight. They were also really really really really good. So they pop a load go home. You know what I mean? They just they knew what they were doing and I was I was butting and trying to get better at it. I’m hitting it hot and heavy. I’m disrupting the cartels. I’m getting human smuggling loads every night. I’m getting dope loads once a week. And so I’m I’m making getting a name made for myself. So in the in the interdiction world, one particular morning, it’s about 5:00 in the morning. I’m westbound I 10 coming into Phoenix from what would be like the Tucson Cast Grand area. So it’s coming into Phoenix where you know all the drugs come through. I’m on a traffic stop. I’m looking for a load and I I said I’m just going to make this stop real quick and then go home. I make the stop. It’s nothing. I’m writing a warning. I’m sending on its way. I’m sitting there and I’m finishing up my notes. As I finish up my notes, there’s a car that pulls in front of me, a little little passenger car. Guy gets out and he’s got his hands up like this and he go, you know, he opens up his shirt like this and I can see his badge and gun. He walks up. He goes, “Hey man, I’m Phoenix PD. I’m Phoenix Speedy.” I said, “Okay, what’s up, man?” He goes, “Let me show you something.” So he he walks back to his car. comes back to my car and slaps down photographs of me on traffic stops that were confiscated by from uh drophouses in the Phoenix metropolitan area because they knew that there was an officer that was working out there along I 10 alone at night. They didn’t know my name, but they knew I was alone and they knew where I worked and they knew when I worked. That doesn’t feel good. No, I I’m like, “Okay, thank you.” So, I’m like, I got his contact information. I’m calling my sergeant. I’m like, “Hey, boss.” Like, “Let’s talk.” So, everybody can be like, “Okay, well, you’re not allowed to work out there by yourself anymore, right?” So, so I I ended up coming in for Well, the problem was is all I loved my old squad, don’t get me wrong, but they didn’t like to do the interdiction. They like to do the other stuff. So, motor vehicle and all that stuff, right? I was like, “You bastards need to be out here chasing the bad guys.” That was a hair raising moment, though. That was very Totally. Yeah. That was like, holy [ _ ] I wouldn’t sleep well from that because it’s like, what else do they know? Do they have my home address? Like I say, I’m a problem for them, you know? They had a they knew that there were two officers that worked the same area in the mornings and there was one at night and one of the officers in the morning was my brother. Oh. So, yeah. So, it was a family affair. Damn, man. That’s spooky. Okay. And again, this kind of like is alludes to the the discussion of what’s happening now about like law enforcement being allowed to shield their face. You know, there’s a lot of that going on because I like I’ve seen some videos now, man, of these protesters just taking a video of somebody’s an officer’s face and then boom, they’ve got all their information, which is terrifying to me. But that was a side quest. Yeah. No, that’s a great point. Absolutely. Um AJ, can do you have a heartwarming call that you remember? Oh, yeah. Oh yeah, I have lots of heartwarming calls. Um, that was like, you know, the one of the things that really when I became when I saw an instance happen on the freeway where I could have saved somebody’s life, but I didn’t possess the skills to save that person’s life. That’s what led me down the path of um becoming an EMT. Okay. And so the story that I have, it’s it’s a humbling story and it’s heartwarming story because the they ended up being able to get justice. Um, wrongway driver crashes right on the border of what my district was and the the central district was. So that took two districts and brought them into one area. And so like just a little bit of confusion and that type of stuff. Well, that district you very serious uh uh wrongway driver in the Phoenix metropolitan area. And the the car came on from like right in the heart of like I 10 and 7 street and if anybody from Phoenix knows the area it’s like the heart hits several vehicles and they’re shutting everything down and they say the next officer on scene you know from the next officer from Metro East shut down this. I get on the radio and again trying to trying to save the day I go is anybody you know is is fire on scene yet? They’re like no they’re not on scene yet. I said I’m an EMT. I said I’m going into the scene and I’m going to start triaging. So the captain goes, “Go ahead.” You like, “You don’t need to shut that down. Go to ahead.” So I get on scene, weave my way through the cars that are, you know, the traffic that is now stopped on the freeway. Pull up and I grab my my EMT bag and I’m now running to the cars and I’m like, “Okay.” And, you know, there’s, you know, how like the accident has freshly happened. You know, there’s chaos. People still still walking everywhere. Nobody knows really what the hell’s going on. There’s maybe one or two other officers on scene. Uh, Phoenix PD is also now starting to come on. They’re like, “Oh, this is not good.” So I run over to one car dead. run over went over to this car and then this girl person is not okay. So I end up um going into the car and I end up being behind her and so I’m sitting down behind her and I’m now I’m trying to feel for a pulse and all this. The the car is so crushed and compressed that’s the only place I could get it. So So she’s in agonal breathing. I can barely feel a pulse. So I end up getting what’s called an OPA in so I can I I’ve opened up her airway. So, I’m now behind her and I now have officers running over to me and screaming and yelling going, “What do you need?” So, I said, “I need a triage list.” I go, “Go tell me what that person is. Go tell me what this person is. Go tell me what that person is.” And so, I’m now doing CPR as best as I can from around the back of the car and I’m like pumping on her like this from from behind. I know. Sorry. Sorry for that visual. Um, so now again, everybody’s coming up on scene and it gets Phoenix in the summertime. It’s 100 and some odd degrees out still at night. I’m drenched. I’m pouring sweat. Fire gets on scene. We’re going to extricate her. So, they end up throwing a blanket over both of us. I’m continuing CPR this entire time as best as I possibly can. And they’re cutting the roof of the car off. So, they cut, like I said, they just have a big ass fire blanket over both of us. So, the saws are going and the and the the sparks are hitting and everything like that. Right. You must have been sweating. Geez. Oh, dude. It was it was a sauna. It was hotter than a sauna. So, they cut the car away. They get her out. And then being an MT, I I follow her into the ambulance and I tell them what I’ve done and and everything like that. And it’s and they look at me, they’re like, “Wow, you know, awesome. Cool.” And so as I get out of the car, um ultimately the girl ended up living. And what I didn’t know was that she was the the the wrongway driver, so they were able to luckily she was able to stand trial. So that’s the heartwarming part to me is that they were able to I I kept her ass alive long enough to to go see prison. So, she she didn’t get to die there, but I I’m walking out of the ambulance and I’m I’m covered in sweat. I’ve used a bunch of my my products and my department did not have a program for EMTs, so I always had to go to the fire departments and beg for supplies. Yeah. Reload. Right. So, I walk There you go. So, I walk up to the Phoenix fire officer or the fire the fire guys and I’m getting stuff and this this uh the Metro Central comes up and shakes my hand. He’s like, “That was badass, dude.” And like I’m getting high, you know, the cool stuff, man. I’m the cool guy. I’m the cool guy. Like, man, I’m, you know, I’m I’m 10 feet. I’m I’m only 5’7. So, you know, like I’m I’m I’m 8t tall and 400 lb. And everybody’s slapping me on the back and thinks it’s the coolest thing ever. I go back to my patrol car and I’m grabbing a water bottle, putting my bag back. And now I’m walking back in a scene. There’s tape, you know, there’s police line tape so the cars know not to go. And again, this is in front of a whole row of traffic. They’re all standing there looking at this. Well, I’m walking back and this truck driver in an 18 meter. He’s looking down at me and he gives me a thumbs up. I I give him the thumbs up. I look up at him. What I did not see was the piece of plastic about that big that was coated in oil that my right foot hit and I hit that piece of piece of uh uh oiled up piece of plastic and fell right on my back, splat on the freeway right in front of everybody that I was just so freaking cool to. And I was like, that’s the good Lord just letting me know that he’s humbling me. Brought you back down. Yes. But the good news was was that the girl survived, ended up survive hitting, you know, going through trial and ended up going to prison for the accident in the deaths that she caused. So, I know that’s not like the most heartwarming thing, but at the same time, it’s like there was at least justice that was served. No, it’s a great story. It’s very nuance in that capacity. You had us cheering and then we went, “Oh, wait.” She was guy. Yeah, she that and that was the thing, too. And I’ll tell you what, there was definitely a moment in there where I was like, had I had known she was the wrong way when I really paid that much attention to her, right? It was almost better you didn’t know anything. Yeah, it’s better that I didn’t know. It was better that I did not know. Absolutely. Great. I love that story. Um AJ, um popular question on the show, advice to people who are listening that are thinking about being cops or maybe they’re in backgrounds, they’re about to they’re about to do it. What would you tell them going in now? You don’t say one of the the the biggest thing the biggest moment in my life that was the shooting that I investigated of a police officer. I wasn’t involved in the shooting. I was one of the the detectives that uh that was code case on it. So, when I went to interview for the position of a special investigations unit detective, which was a homicide detective, the uh captain that was interviewing me talked about the fact that we’re going to deal with dead cops. You’re going to be investigating dead cops. Nobody knows how you’re going to react when you see that uniform on the table. Yeah. And I didn’t know what that meant until it bothered me so much. And where I’m going with that is is that for those that are going into this career, the most there there are so many amazing things about this job. And there’s so many amazing things. And the reason why I’m not one of these mother effing people like you know how I my time ended wasn’t the best, but I’m still not I’m not bitter about it. It led me to here to be able to to mentor. There’s so many amazing things that you’re going to do and there’s so many opportunities whether you’re small town cop or big city cop. I’d actually say that small town guys can actually do a little bit more in a different way, but you don’t know how you’re going to react until those situations happen. Yeah. And you don’t know how that’s going to affect you six months from the moment it happened, a year from the moment it happened. And as I said, I was a cops cop. I spoke cop, walk, cop, talk cop, you know what I mean? And did all did all that stuff. And I wasn’t taking care of my mental health at all. At all. I thought that by engrossing myself more into the work, that’s what would help solve my mental health issues. But what I didn’t know is that that was partly what was destroying me. I’m never I’m never going to say don’t go into law enforcement. No. What I’m going to say is be a balanced human being. Understand that it is a calling. It is 100% a calling. And for those that that love the job and know the job, know it’s a calling. And you just don’t know. You’re going to hear the stories of people like, “Oh, you need to take care of yourself. You need to do this and do that.” I don’t have the words or capability to beat it into the newbies heads that you have to take care of yourself mentally. You have to have that hobby, a hobby that is not talking about cop stuff, right? A hobby with friends that are not cops. You can have your cop friends. You can absolutely have your cop friends, but do something that is not cop related where you’re not just talking about the dead bodies, where you’re not just talking about Absolutely. Yeah. Oh, you guys remember, you know, that rollover blah blah blah or whatever the case. Again, I was state trooper, so 80% of my stuff is vehicle related, but um you need to be go in with eyes wide open and understand that it’s going to mess you up mentally. you’re gonna see and deal with. I mean, people don’t real the public doesn’t realize in a in a in a town, how many suicides happen a day, right? How many just dead bodies happen a day in just a a city, you know, just normal life, everyday life happens and you’re pulling out dead bodies and you’re dealing with dead babies and you’re dealing with the worst of society on a day daily basis. But then on the opposite side, you’re going to have an impact on somebody’s life that you don’t know that you had. And if it’s a positive one, that’s that’s amazing. That’s going to make somebody’s, you know, that’s going to make them be want to become a police officer. That’s going to make them want to, you know, go into, you know, civil service. It’s going to make them want to do better for their community. And where I’m going with that is is that you have to you have to figure out the way to keep your mental health solid and not become that [ _ ] and not become the the the cynic that when you see a person that matches the description of whatever even when you’re off duty automatically, you know, you’re on guard and this that that type of stuff. You have to be able to have a balance and recognize the fact that it is a job and it will move on without you, right? But while you’re there, you need to do the best that you possibly can. And it is a sacrifice and it is a service. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Words of wisdom right there. I mean, I’m hopeful that there’s there are more people um out there talking about now. So, I think I feel like young cops getting in are consuming some of this stuff that we’re putting out. And I think cuz when I became cop, there just wasn’t even in my mind. It was more like I’ll probably see some stuff that screwed up. hopefully I don’t freak out, you know what I mean? There was no like preventative stuff. It was just like hopefully I don’t have a meltdown, you know, or whatever. But now people are seeing guys like you and other guests that come on um keep mentioning this kind of protective stuff and I think I’m I’m hopeful it helps, you know. Oh, and that was the one thing before be the IASA thing. All right. um talking about all of these different things that we’re talking about and and where I go with the mental health aspect was is that I I’ll just give you the synopsis. I I investigated a police shooting in Xolo of Officer Darren Reed. It was horrific. Uh it it messed me up mentally. There there you go. There’s there’s the synopsis. But it was in those moments where when I was consuming cannabis that I ended up being able to disassociate from the thing and was able to walk through that scene and was able to really alleviate a lot of my trauma to the fact where I can even talk about it. And when I’m talking about mental health, I don’t care what it is that you do for your mental health as long as it’s not destructive, right? You know, as long as you know, drinking is destructive. It it absolutely is. And if I could I don’t drink anymore. I don’t drink anymore. Not because I’m sober because of any sort of a program or anything like that. It just it’s I had a very piss poor relationship with it. Yeah. It it cost me my job. It cost me almost cost me my marriage. So I choose not to drink because it’s it’s that terrible. But there’s a lot of other things that are happening with regarding like ketamine therapy and Iaska and psilocybin and you know cannabis and all that type of stuff. Uh I’m so happy that you said that uh New Jersey is uh allowing them now because I actually talked to a lieutenant that was instrumental years ago to get that involved. But that’s where I’m going with the mental health aspect of is is that it’s the physical outlet regarding your your physical exercise, you know, the mental health aspect. And there’s lots of promising futures in plant-based medicine. And it’s just one of the avenues that I think officers should explore and I think departments should start exploring. I just had a guest on my podcast, Matt Thomas. He was the number two of Panal County. He’s Yeah, he came on here. Great guy. He’s an amazing guy and he’s the chief now of Florence PD. It’s a town the town of Florence. Oh, he’s not chief deputy anymore. He moved on to um he was just offered the position of chief of the town of Florence. So, he took that. Good for him. He yeah he was originally going to stay on with the transition to Ross Tele uh to Panal County and then but this offer came along so it worked out beneficial for everybody but he spoke openly about the fact that he was an advocate for ketamine therapy for his department which he led the way for post there’s Arizona peace officer standard training which is the governing body so he had to to have the fight and lead the way on the ketamine therapy front and he talks about the benefits of it and again there’s so many things that like I don’t think you know ketamine is definitely a bit on the stronger side. So as is as is baby. Yeah. Right. But again but again there in lies the fact of of the argument of it has a medicinal benefit. Right. Yeah. You you can recreate with ketamine and you know be you know not able to function or you can let’s heal through some trauma together type thing. the the thing about Iawaska that and I had um uh is it Mike Morgan who came Morgan? Um he came and talked about great guy. Uh shoot I can’t remember his first name. I think it was Mike Morgan. He came and talked about it and it really helped him and I kind of just sat there and listened and and and was thinking about it because I didn’t really know anything about it. The thing that really scares me about it is the spiritual aspect of Iawaska and the guy’s talking about the great mother presenting herself to you and it I’m a Christian so obviously to me this is sounds demonic you know it sounds it sounds sounds like familiar spirits you know unless you can do it and say I know that wasn’t real that wasn’t that was you know part of its working on my brain but there are people that do believe that There there are these spirits that like communicate with you when you do it. That’s what freaks me out about it mostly. Brother, I am a Christian. I have a cross tattooed on my arm. I am I am a a god-fearing believe in Jesus Christ Christian. And I can tell you now, I have never done Iawaska. I have never done uh psilocybin. Um I should I have done an extraordinarily small micro dose of psilocybin one time in my life and that was it. Um, I said I’m a cannabis user, but on a personal note, I’m not preaching anything on a personal note and seeing the healing that happens with these people, I personally believe that these plants were put on this earth for a reason by the good Lord Almighty to be used. We just need to learn how to use them properly. There are in fact many many many documented cases of exactly what you’re saying that some sort of thing tries to communicate with people when they’re on Iawaska or DMT or whatever the case may be. I’ve never had those experiences so I don’t know. Right. But the the people that I know who have gone through these sorts of retreats or have gone through and used uh a friend of mine uses psilocybin on a regular basis because he has such severe PTSD that it keeps him on the level. the people that I know have that have done it are Christians and it’s healing them. So I I hear you. I I believe in the demonic forces just as much as I believe in in the good forces as well. And I believe in the power of of God and I believe in the power of Jesus Christ. I don’t think it comes from a place of malevolence. I think it comes from a place of benevolence and I think it comes from these were the things that were given to us to heal ourselves naturally and I do it still freaks me out though. I get it. I get it. I see now I the I had I had a ketamine therapy on doctor on and I said I’m not ready for it. And then Matt Thomas goes you’re ready. Um but uh I’m not ready for ketamine because that actually kind of scares me. Yeah. And that because it’s a jump even me as a as a daily cannabis user. It’s It’s still a jump for me to use, which is where I stand on the the bridge between blowing your brains out and ketamine therapy is cannabis. That that to me is the bridge of like, hey, let’s work through some things, you know, let’s kind of like relax yourself a little bit, right? Maybe you’re not ready for an iawaska trip. Maybe you’re not ready for a psilocybin, you know, heroic dose where you go and meet God for a little bit. So, you know, but I do believe there is power in all of that stuff. And I know this sounds super woo woo, but I have just been exposed to too many people that have that have shared their stories with me personally, not on the podcast, but personally, and I’ve seen the changes in people, and I’ve understand why they’re using whatever the case is and seeing them come through these transformations, and it’s like there’s something very much there. Yeah, there’s something very much there. I totally hear you. And you know, the university close to where I work is um UMass and they’re studying um psilocybin and how it micro doing um can repair the pathways in the brain for like Alzheimer’s or something, but you know, it’s like it’s not woo woo science. It’s like they’re really they’re really studying it and figuring stuff out. So, can’t really deny, you know, it it they wouldn’t put all that money into studying it if there was going to be benefits in the at the end, you know. Amen. And for anybody who’s ever interested in that sort of research, uh Dr. Sue Sisley, S I S L E Y. She’s like this spearheading all that stuff. She’s here in Arizona. I’m lucky to be friends with her actually just because of all the cannabis stuff that I do. But um yeah, no, there’s there’s some serious research going into that type of stuff and especially for first responders and uh uh military veterans. Oh, that’s great. Brother, tell us a little bit about the Blue to Green podcast. What can people expect? So, the the the Blue to Green podcast is exactly what we’re sitting here doing right now. It’s it’s talking about law enforcement stuff. My my when I started this podcast, I said I want to bridge the gap between the cannabis community and the law enforcement community. I want to show the human side of law enforcement to the cannabis side and the human side of cannabis to the law enforcement side and to talk about and to show the fact that like, hey, you can medicate and lead responsible lives and still support law enforcement and all of those sorts of things and lead a productive life with a natural plant-based medicine that’s not going to make you jump off a building, you know? So again, we there’s medical sides and we could talk about all the other stuff, you know, at a at a later time, but yeah, it’s about having conversations with anybody that will allow me to show what their departments are about, what they’re doing, the community policing. I’m having a hard time getting into city cops. They just they don’t like those little cannabis leaves on the side of my logo. But that’s that’s why again like I’m so freaking thankful and grateful to uh the Panau County Sheriff’s Office, man. They have let me in. But it’s about talking and just having open conversation and dialogue. You know, it’s about them seeing and hearing my journey and showing them that we’re not all just, you know, pot smoking hippies that are don’t lead productive lives, but it’s about healing and growing together and bringing understanding and on the cannabis side of the house, showing the law enforcement, you know, why they’re using it. And on the law enforcement side, showing the cannabis users like, you know, this is why they do what they do and this is why we should support them. Because when when some dude jumps in my backyard with a gun, you know, I want the biggest, baddest, meanest cops to come and take care of that problem for me, right? So that’s why I pay my taxes. Yes. But no, it’s it’s about just trying to bring everybody together and just have open dialogue and conversation and also to understand the different laws. So awesome. Yeah. Well, I’ll put the link in the show notes so people can find you. It’s available on I’m sorry, man. I’m like losing. You’re good. You’re good. It’s available on all major platforms. I will link it in the show notes and I’ll link whatever else you like. Um AJ, it was an honor to have you on, man. Great conversation. Thank you for coming. Thank you so much for the opportunity. I sincerely appreciate it and I really do. Again, I like to talk cannabis and I don’t shut up. So, thank you so much, man. I appreciate it. Oh, my pleasure, brother. I got to go and do the outro. Can you hang on like two minutes? Yep. I’m sorry, guys. Excuse me. The great AJ Jacobs. Super fun conversation. I learned a lot, guys. This is a part of the show when I when I read the Patreon um sergeants and above for a shout out, but uh I’m quickly losing my ability to talk. So, I’m not going to play maybe I’ll play the music like really low and I’m just going to do straight up the names. Usually, I get creative, but I can’t do that. We’re talking about Andy Biggs, Joey Langley, Kyle Roberts, Michael Roach, Tom Connell, Adam McMahon, Adam Mihal, Brad Thompson, Brett Lee, Dan Carlson from Berley Boards, Cherry Finch, Clark Leoff, Dave Elman, Dennis Keroske, Doug and Kelly Newman, Dylan Mosher, Elliot Sykes, Gabriel Decnop, Gary Steiner, George Cerotus, Greg Gatboy, Jackson Dalton, Jason Lee, Jason Laauo, John Jordan, John Shoemaker, John and Aaron Kate, Lauren Stimson, Lane Campbell, Lisa Gau, Marcus Johansson, Motorcop Chronicles, that’s Iceman, check out his podcast, Nancy Hammond, Paul Maloney, Raymond Arsenal, Richard Tols, Sasha McNab, Sam Conway, Scott Young, Sean Clifford, Seth Wright, Sheriff Ronald Long, Tammy Walsh, Tony Fehey, Zachary Pleet, George Tessier, I know that was really weird because usually I’d do a booming voice with everybody and give you a nickname, but I couldn’t do it. Guys, I will do it next time. I promise you. Thank you for checking out the show. I love you and I’ll see you next week.