High School Teacher to DEA Special Agent

This is Things Police See, firsthand accounts with your host Steve Gold. Welcome to the podcast that interviews active and retired police officers about their most intense, bizarre, and sometimes humorous moments on the job. It is I, Old Ginger Face, here with you as always. Um, thank you for being here, guys. Thank you f for finding the show and all the binge listening that you’ve been doing. Truly appreciate that. As I always say, the the content is evergreen. So, you can you can kind of just um if you like hearing these uh officers tell their amazing stories, you can rip through all of them. They’re all pretty much uh they’re all good to go. There might be some cops in the news in there that are topical, but mostly the the whole idea of the show is for you to hear the men and women of law enforcement tell their stories as they live them to gain a better appreciation for what it is they’re actually doing out there. So, that’s that’s the whole point. If you love the show, uh, and you want to be kept up to date on stuff, you can go to the the website and things.com and join the the newsletter and, uh, follow on Instagram and Facebook. All that stuff, uh, is truly appreciated, guys. Uh, my guest today, excited to have him. Had a long career, believe it or not. Started out as a high school teacher and football coach. He then did 32 years in the DEA. He was a supervising special agent, even taught at Quantico Tactical Training Unit, which is which is pretty impressive. Um, excited to have him. Let’s bring him on. Jack McFarland. Jack. Hey, Steve. How are you doing? How’s everything? Good, brother. Good to have you on. I’m I’m proud to say I know you just got into this social media game recently. I’m proud to say I am your first follower on Instagram. Thank you very much. It’s a It’s a different world, man. I I’m just learning every day. I learn something new every day. Yes, sir. It’s very cool, man. I’ve said it a million times on the podcast, but especially from speaking from a podcast standpoint, um, in today’s day and age, you can you can literally for a couple hundred bucks, start your own radio station and put your message out there. It’s incredible. Everybody can have a voice, you know. That is absolutely correct. U, a buddy of mine about uh, mid June dared me to do this and I said, “Okay.” I said, “Uh, let’s give it a shot.” So, he had he had a contact. Uh, we went for the first guys and I I could put the name out the team house if you don’t mind out of New York and hit it off with those guys. Super guys and before before you know it, I’m getting u like leads and and emails and um calls and I’m like, “Okay, I I can do this. I can do this.” So, every day it’s it’s been uh it’s been an adjustment, but also it’s kind of it’s kind of fun. It’s kind of fun putting the word out. Absolutely, man. Jack, I mean, having a career as long as you did for the DEA, you have a lot to share with the world. A lot of people are going to learn stuff from you. Why not why not? This is the this is the fun part. You know, you can kind of talk about the the war stories, what you went through, guide new people getting into it like it’s it’s it’s really fun and it’s all at your own pace, you know. That’s that’s correct. I mean, yes. I mean, a lot of our guys will either go on to second career or second second opportunity, second jobs. Um, I didn’t want to chase that carrot. Uh, we, you know, myself, my wife, we ended up, uh, doing, knock on wood, uh, well, turn on ourselves, uh, financially, but, you know, you always want more. Everyone wants more in life, but so you got to know what you want and what you don’t want to want or do. So, um, I didn’t want that, but all of a sudden, you know, this comes along and people have said to me, Jack, you were a former teacher, former coach, an academy instructor, you’ve been to this class, been to this class. Part, you know, part it out there. get get the information out there to the GP. We call him the GP, the general public. And I one thing I don’t do is is um I’m I’m a coal cracker from up in the uh just northwest of Allentown, Pennsylvania, a coal region guy. And a little little town up there called M City, I’ll call it. And there’s people up there just such great people. They’re tough tough workers, coal miners. And I thought to myself, you know, I moved on from there. Got into a great career with the federal government, uh the DEA. I did apply to the FBI back in ‘ 87 and the DEA in ‘ 87 and DEA came a call in first. So that’s how I ended up going with DEA and 32 years later. Uh Steve, if you’re not familiar, your listeners are not familiar. But at 57, if you’re a weapon carrier for Uncle Sam, uh DEA, FBI, Secret Service, ATF, US Marshalss, like there’s a whole laundry list of them, Alphabets. You’re out at 57. So I got a tap about a year before I’m sitting there in headquarters in Washington DC and I get a tap from HR. They’re like, “Here’s your packet. I my my package for what? And they said retirement. I’m like, “Oh my god, am I did I get that old that fast?” That’s so funny. They’re they’re they’re doing the opposite thing in Massachusetts now. They’re worried about their retirement system being able to support all of us. So, they’re they’re making cops uh can retire now into their 60s. You know, they the old I’m in the old system, so I can go at 55, but the mandatory retirement age is now um it’s in this mid60s and they’re they’re you can get a waiver from the state senate. They’re not hard to get. So, we’ve had cops working into their 70s now. Wow. Where I doing 50 years on the road, it’s like, man, you should go see a psychologist, brother. Something I don’t know how you guys I have great respect and and great respect for for local, county, state guys that are out there and gals that are out there every day doing what you guys do because you’re on you’re on the road by yourself and the next closest unit to you is like, you know, 10 or 15 miles or maybe even further if you’re you’re a rural trooper in PA. I mean, buddies of mine, two good friends of mine were rural troopers. One were always up to the rank of major, one to the rank of captain. And these, you could have be out there 30, 40 miles your closest backup is. With we with DEA, we always kind of went out heavy. You know, we always had a lot of tactical teams and teams going out. When you’re doing a say an undercover purchase, you’re going to have, you know, 8, 10, 12 personnel out there protecting you, watching you. So, it’s it’s I I take my hat off to you guys and even and the international as well. International as well. Yes, sir. Yeah. Absolutely. Uh Jax, I got to ask um and people want to hear high school teacher and football coach. I mean, that sounds like the a slice of Americana to me, but how how do you go from that to wanting to do the DEA? Was it always just like a a burning passion or you were always curious? What happened? Wow, that’s a great question, Steve. It really is a great question. Okay. So, basically, teaching and and uh coaching great great careers. I mean, yes, I always would say teaching is not an earning experience. It’s a learning experience. You’re going to learn an awful lot. Time management, how to communicate effectively, your written skills, uh just, you know, everyone thought I was a a PE teacher, fizzed teacher. No, I was a business education teacher. I taught accounting, business law, consumer mathematics, and I had a certain group that always came to as a teacher. I had the athletes and I had the I no disrespect I call them the army jacket personnel meaning the tough guys the tough ones that were weren’t the brainiacs and they weren’t the athletes but they were good people you know you need Mr. McFarland, you need something. I’m like, no, we’re good. You know, like, no, I’m good. You know, I’m good. Don’t stay away from him. Don’t don’t touch him. Leave him alone. So, uh, but after after several years of doing this, a friend of mine, not to bore you with subject matter, but a friend of mine who was working for, uh, Alfons Diamato, was a US senator. He was a staffer. Uh, Jim uh, uh, played linebacker at Syracuse University. Uh, great athlete, great linebacker. So, he got his masters and went down for to down to DC. And he sends me this packet through snail mail. He says, “Jack, I just sent you some packets for government jobs.” I said, “Well, you know, Jim,” I said, “I’m kind of content what I’m teaching you at.” So, he said, “Just fill them out.” I said, “So, I filled them out. FBI special a DEA special agent.” Went through the process together. DEA came and call him. Really? Was it was it a plan? Not really. Not really. But when I got in the When I got in the academy, Steve, let me just tell you something. My roommate, all right, here’s my roommate. God bless his rest his soul. God bless his soul. He was killed in the first Gulf War. He was a Marine Corps Marine Corps major. He was in a Marine Corps reserves coming on with DEA. He was a Naval Academy graduate. The guy was 6’1, about 25 210. Good looking Irish dude from Brooklyn, New York. And I’m going, what am I doing with these people? Ranger this, Marine Corps that, Jersey trooper here. And I’m like, did I just enter into the wrong world here or what? I’m a school teacher for Christ’s sake, you know? So, um, and and it worked out because I knew that I could hang with these people. I could hang with them. And I did. And I did. Yeah. I mean, it takes all types, too. I mean, it’s um you need all kinds of walks of life. We we you know, I I I don’t know how beneficial it would be to have all law enforcement and federal agents to be um prior military. You know, they’re you’re right very they’re great, but like you need to mix it up. Like I was never a a military guy. I went into law enforcement. Same thing when I went police came out police academy. A third of our class was military guys. And thank goodness for that because they taught us how to stand in formation and march and about face because we didn’t know what the hell we were doing. But, you know, it takes all kinds. Yes, sir. I mean, and think about this. Here’s here’s a guy standing next to me on the firing line for I guess back then we were uh about for about 14 weeks. Now, for many many years it was 17 weeks, 18 weeks. When I was down there as an instructor, a instructor was 17 weeks. And here I’m standing on the firing line with with Jean to my to my left. Loved him dearly. Still still have his numbers and all that stuff. Of course, he was killed uh February 2nd, 1991. He crashed his Huey, excuse me, his Cobra, his gunship. Um, and sad, very sad, but this man is is like hitting targets. And I and I’m like, what is this thing sour? What’s this double decock and holster and double action mean? And I’m like, I don’t know this stuff, you know? I mean, I can I can tell you what a what a safety should be doing. I mean, if there’s in a cover two formation, you know, cover, but I’m like, what are we doing here, you know? So, uh, but I learned I learned and it was fun. It was a lot of fun. Yeah, absolutely. And I hear that they take, um, firearms very serious in the federalmies, I hear. So, you actually, you got to be a shooter to get out of there. Yes, you do. You have to, um, handgun, shotgun, and um, uh, rifle. So, I guess now they’re been using the M4s for a long time, uh, the 223s, the 5.56s. When I went through uh back in the late 80s, um we had a weapon called the SMG. It was called a submachine gun. It was a baby 9 millimeter. It was a it was a awesome weapon, but the penetration on it was wasn’t that good. So eventually they went up to the um Cove M4s, the Rock Rivers, and so on and so forth. But because you have to have the firepower out there because the bad guys got got the firepower. You don’t want to be outgunned, you know? You just don’t want to be that way. And you know, if you ever look up look up a case, um FBI shootout down in Miami, Florida, Grogan and Dove, look at look at those guys. They got out there and what saved them was the fell that had the 12 gauge. Uh so and then when that happened, bureau changed their policy weapons, man. They went with the long guns out in the streets. So that that that that birthed the the 40 cal, didn’t it? It did. They went to the 40 cal and and that’s what we followed FBI too with the 40 caliber handgun. And and as I said to the boys on on team house, I said, I’m not I’m not a I’m not a barrel sucker. And I love one of the comments that that uh Dave said, and I have to repeat this. Gun shoot, gun good. That that’s what I am. Gun good. Gun shoot gun good. You know, I repeat that because it’s like, you know, velocity rounds and this and that and but anyway, we went to the 40 cal. Then we I’m not, like I said, I’m not a TNA guy, you know, testing and evaluation, T& guy. Uh but then they went back to the 9mm. So I had the 40 cal Glock 22 eventually after the Sig 9 millimeter into the Glock 2240. Then I had got myself a baby Glock 9 millimeter as a backup and I still have that today because it was my weapon. So but with the the 40 cal they are so as you know if you fire them they are bang they they’re powerful they can’t keep it you can’t keep it on target no matter how strong you are. It it moves it it jerks. Boom boom boom. So uh then they went back to the nine. Now, from what I understand, I think they’re using either the 17 or 19 Glock. Uh, so yeah. So, they’re doing they’re using that. Yeah. I mean, it’s true. I’ve taught firearm instruction for um a while now, and uh the 40 is a hell of a round, but so is the 40 Magnum. You know what I mean? Like, but the pro the problem is females and small guys or smaller hand guys or guys that aren’t super proficient. You put a 40 in their hand and it’s jumping everywhere and then you we went same thing because we follow the feds. We went back to the nine when the 9 millmter technology got better and the bullets and blah blah blah blah and all the all the firearm scores got back up into the 90s hundreds. There you go. With the 40, they were you know the follow-up shot was almost impossible because it was so snappy, you know. May I May I ask you a question? What was your furthest distance you would fire? What’s your furthest distance? State of Massachusett State of Massachusetts official qualification only goes back to 15 yards. So 45 feet. 15. Can you believe we were firing handguns from the 50 yard line with DEA? That’s 50 yard line. And if finally someone got after like I don’t even know like maybe July of 2016 or 17 I don’t know exactly when somewhere in that time no more 50 25 and in. Yeah. Because where where is the action happening? The action’s happening you know 5 to seven feet away. Majority of gunfights five to seven feet away. And we’re back there banging like uh I forget the course of fire when it was we went from a 100 round course of fire down to a 50 course of fire and I think it was 10 at 100 then it went down to 50 went down to five. It’s like basically it’s like you you go to the range instructor and say here’s my here’s my five rounds in the 50 you know be just take them I’m going to ding them off the target anyway the paper I’m gonna hit them you know so it’s like here’s my five I’m down five already you know it’s like oh great down 10 points you know so yeah the handgun wasn’t designed for 50 yards I mean but I mean we we’ll shoot back to the 25 but it’s just part of training it’s not part of the official quall and I know some states like a lot of um seems like a lot of uh uh state police departments will go back to the 25 um and I don’t know if that is because like you were saying they’re on the road alone a lot and you know maybe they need to be able to hunker down and get some long rounds off. I don’t know the strategy but yeah like I mean people have enough trouble at 45 ft 25 yards 50 yards it’s a disaster. I mean what does it what does a mass trooper carry up there? I don’t even know what they carry. They probably they probably have some type of heavy you know 223 or 5.56 in their car these days. I’m sure you do as well in your cruiser. We have an M. We carry M4s and we have um Glocks uh model 45s which is just like a 19 and a 17 put together. And I think the state police and mass carry a Sig P3 P320 and they also the state’s so big they’re always like way behind. So they we had rifles and all these upgrades years before they did. They only had like maybe a handful of their cars had rifles and now they all have them because you know there’s over 2,000 troopers. to make that kind of purchase, it takes it’s like steering a battleship to like, all right, we need all this we need million dollars to upgrade our rifles. And it takes a long time, but they’re they’re pretty much well outfitted now. Cool. Cool. Yeah, they’re good to go. Yep. Yes. Yes. Um Jack, can you take us um the way back machine here too when you started 32 years ago? Can you think of the first investigation or or case or call that um gave you an adrenaline dump or you know spit up the heart a little bit? Well, the one that um comes to mind and it’ll be it’ll be when I got out of the academy. I came back to my office of hire which was the Allentown resident office. I I I hired on through the Allentown resin office and one particular day um we’re s we’re in the office and we are in the midst of supporting the other alphabets in the area plus a lot of the state and locals. So that particular day we get a call from the Pennsylvania State Police uh from the Bethlein barracks. They had a uh undercover going to uh you know um negotiate for kilo cocaine. So the undercover uh basic what he ended up doing was something that you really don’t want to do and they’ll never badmouth another officer or their decision. But you when you’re in undercover role, you never want to come out of undercover role until it’s all safe and sound. Boom. Okay. So when the troop when the trooper meets the bad guy, the trooper sees that the bad guy’s got the key. So, in in in the uh sport utility vehicle the bad guys driving, he’s like, “Well, go get your money.” Well, the trooper says, “Ten weapon, you’re under arrest.” Well, that person didn’t think it was fine. He didn’t He didn’t believe him. He’s like, “Wait a minute. You’re negotiating dope with me and then all of a sudden you want to arrest me? I think you’re going to try to rip me off.” That’s what the bad should thinking. I’d be thinking you’re trying to rip me off. So, what happens was the bad guy backs out, tries to flee a location. trooper gets up on on the side of on this port utility and as he does he ends up the trooper ends up letting a round go bang a 45 in the in the guy’s thigh I think it was his left eye boom blows it up well as the vehicle’s coming the trooper gets knocked off the car myself and a senior trooper undercover Monte Carlo all right now here’s the heartbeat going okay I mean a young agent from the academy this isn’t down in Kanica we’re playing we’re playing we’re playing for real now this is not make believe so We’re blown in with the the little round uh light going on. We’re coming in. I guess they used to call them the cojack lights. So, we’re coming in. My heart’s going like, “Oh my god.” You know, you know, we got we’re coming nose tonse with this utility. I’m out of the academy maybe a month, Steve. Out of about a month, and we’re coming in for a major major federal felony arrest, felony vehicle stop. So, the trooper was an old was an old-timer. Um plane clothes, of course. Monte Carlo, we come nose and nose. And Monty, we got the car stopped. Here’s the funny part. I go and try to Miami vice it. I go and try to kick that big that big Monte Carlo door. That Monte Carlo door came back, hit me, knocked me right across the front seat of the car. I had my six hour in my freaking hand. The troopers looking at me, yelling at me going, “What are you doing? What are you doing? Get Let’s go. Let’s go. Let’s go.” So, I’m like, “Okay, okay.” Hit the door. The door. He goes, “Let’s go.” So, we come roll up on the car. We get the bad guy out. We put him on the deck on the ground. Cuff him. And then I notice this pool of blood. And I think to myself, what did I get myself into here? Yeah. Here we got an individual got shot. I’m in a shooting. I almost got killed by Lmani Carlo. Maybe I should be on the field coaching receivers and safeties like I I was doing a couple months, you know, a couple months ago, you know. So, that particular one got me thinking like, wow, this is for real. This this stuff is actually for real. And the trooper was fine. He was fine. He rolled off and and and uh we actually became friends. Uh he ended up being being going on to be with the FBI, which was kind of cool. So he knew lessons learned. No, no, no. Can’t do that. Can’t do that. So the trooper, I remember he was I don’t know. I mean, I don’t know how he would what he was thinking about what I did or how I did it, but I said to him, I said, “Listen, I’m new to this and I’m trying to figure this out.” And he didn’t wasn’t he wasn’t a smart smart guy. He didn’t, you know, berate me or anything. But then what happens is once that round is fired, you know, all the agencies have to investigate it. Sure. So I’m answering questions to the Pennsylvania State Police. I’m answering questions to our people, DEA, because then the case files grow. So there’s everything was covered properly. And once my statement was given, I was I was fine. But that was my first real like, wow, what what did I get myself into here? Within a month, I’m in a shooting. Yeah. Yeah. And and that that was like in 198 88 just in ‘ 89 and it was like whoa. It made all the news. It made the news. Great. Yeah. Yeah. And then that I mean you probably when you afterwards when it was all over you were probably pumped about it, excited. Oh yeah. I mean once that calms down I mean you know the adrenaline goes away. You need a you know you eat a Snickers bar to get your sugars right. Your sugar right or drink some orange juice whatever. But um I I didn’t know what to to take from that, Steve. I didn’t know how to to take from that because here we came in, we affected the stop in the front. Why were we in the front? Well, because we had the o we had the surveillance and we can see the deal going down. We were calling it out of what was happening. So, we were the first kind of on the scene and then cars came up from behind. So, we were watching any crossfires. But, I’m just grateful from my training that that I didn’t have my finger on the trigger. door hits me. If I didn’t have if I had the finger on the trigger, door hits me, boom, I now I have an accidental discharge going through the windshield. No finger off, trigger move. But the only thing that stopped me from moving was that freaking big door and knocked me on my can, you know, right across the street. I’m right across the seat. So, yeah. Man, that’s awesome. Did um did the guy Did you guys have to render aid to him? Do you have to give him a tourniquet or something on or you probably didn’t even carry tourniquets back then? No, I mean we honestly I mean our our our role was to secure the defendant. Okay. So, we secured the defendant back then. Now, you got a lot of these guys, um, agent personnel are trauma trained, trained in the, you know, use of medical attention. We were not EMTs. Uh, we were not. Matter of fact, the senior agent on the ground with me, he cring pulled me by my shoulder and says, “Come here, just just just back off. Just back off.” You know, and there’s a guy laying on the ground and he’s bleeding. Now, I don’t know if it hit the frame roll or anything, but they had units on there immediately and they end up taking him into um into I guess surgery to get it taken care of, but but for for the 45, as you know, you hit somebody in the right sp that’s going to blow a leg up or blow anything up. So, that’s going to get through and if it’s a through and throw, which it was. So, that’s a that’s a big round. It is. It a 40 caliber going bang, you know. So, um, but yeah, it was it was quite interesting and it was something like I said I I thought about I said, “Man, what what did I get myself into here?” So, I had to at the age of 24, almost 25, you know, you and I as young guys, you can shake things off. You know, you shake those those 18 to 21, 22 years old going in combat. You know, they’re talking about going to get a pizza or talking about going to get play. Oh, excuse my mouth. they’re going to talk about some other type of video game. Uh so uh but yeah, it was it was interesting. It was it was definitely interesting. Yeah. And that’s why I mean they were the army recruits 18 year olds 18 to 20 because that’s when you are you I mean when you get over 25 you really start taking the score of life and going uh I could have been killed or I’m not going to live forever. You know what I mean? But when you’re 18 to 20 it’s kind of like let’s do this and then you don’t even think about oh I could have died. You know, they’re absolutely right. I’m sure you had friends on the on the job or you know somebody got in a gunfight or even a knife attack or or you know a a baton attack or whatever some type of weapon and they get pummeled and it’s like wow I just took a shot in the head here and I’m like what the what am I doing here? You know this guy’s out of his mind or you know why and people love to say you know um why did you why did you have to shoot to kill? Why couldn’t you just shoot the the weapon out of his hand? I said this is not this is not trick shooting man. We we stopped it. We stopped that. Stop the threat. You got to stop the threat. I I I will allow anyone to come out and put a a dummy out there with a with a 9 millimeter in their right hand. Say, “Okay, now from seven yards, I want you to shoot that shoot that handgun out of their hand before they fire a weapon.” Yeah. I mean, people are still saying that, too. I mean, you got to understand, you got to put yourself in the cops or agents shoes, especially when you’re alone. If the guy has any kind of weapon or is even just much bigger and more skilled at fighting than you, you have it can so quickly go the other way and you can be so quickly done and we’re loaded up like a Christmas tree with weapons they can pick off our body. All that is going through your head when you’re directly confronted with somebody, especially when you’re alone. You’re like, I have to end this in quickly. So never mind hand to hand. If they have even any kind of weapon, most times you’re going to your gun because that’s fair. Why is it fair to let this guy have a chance to get the upper hand on me, someone who’s doing the right thing? No, it isn’t. He’s the one who chose that situation and he’s going to get a hole poked in them. That’s just the way it goes down because we have to go home. The bad guys don’t. Sure. I mean, that’s a very good point. I mean, everyone talks about escalation of force. I mean, I’ve testified on many behalfs on escalation of force. you know, mere presence to verbal commands to is it a compliant defense to a non-compliant compliant defendant. You’re going to bring the baton in. You’re going to bring the capstone. You bring the Now they have, of course, uh the tasers, which I don’t know if how effective they are. Uh but yet, so now what’s your next thing? Handgun after that shotgun. What’s after that? Boom. Automatic automatic rifle. I mean, so there’s there’s your escalation of force, but you don’t have time to do that. You’re you’re you have to make make a decision to say, “No, he has 9 millimeter in hand. I must go with 9 millmter gun.” Untouchables moving untouchables. Okay. So, there there they are, right? The big they’re they’re doing their thing. And don’t ever bring a knife to a gunfight, right? Okay. Don’t ever bring an aspeton to a gunfight. You better get go for your gun. So, think about that. And here’s here’s one interesting point I like to point out to you, if you don’t mind, Steve, and your audience is that think about this. We go out there, law enforcement officers go out there and and maybe in a in a in an 8, 10, 12 hour shift, you you’re going to go and you’re going to make so many decisions. so many decisions that period of time and in that particular time you have to make 10 out of 10 calls perfectly. Major League Baseball player goes up 10 times for bat at bat. He hits three balls. He’s a Hall of Famer, right? If if we got three out of 10, we you and I would you’d be sitting t you know in in the typing pool filing filing documents, filing papers, right? You got to do it every time correct. Every time. Every time. Every time. And that’s not easy. It’s not easy, man. stressful. Yeah, it’s a lot of pressure. Yeah, that’s what that I mean, and cops are the worst, too. Monday, Monday morning quarterbacking each other. And we’re the ones that know that in the moment when you’re doing the thing, and then you have the arrest, and then you’re up then you get held over to 3:00 a.m. to do the report and it’s like then some someone reads your report and goes, “Oh, geez, you really you could have added this or you missed this.” And it’s like, “Well, yeah. Yeah, brother. I I was freaking toasted and you know, it’s like give me a break.” We call we call that red inking. You got love the guys. I love the red inky or the gals are red inking. I’m like going were were you there? I didn’t see you there. Were you there? Did that really happen? No red ink you. You know, and it’s like don’t you don’t you dare red ink me because this is a report that I have to testify to what I recall how I remember it. You weren’t there. So don’t do that. You’re on your same side of the of the uh of the aisle. Don’t let let that let that happen to the other side of the aisle. It’s going to question you about it. So in regard to that, it’s something that you know and you’re trained. I believe in training, training, and training. I mean, when I was in in Quantico, maybe I’m getting a little ahead of myself here, but I believed in repeating. And I’m sure the students said, “Oh my goodness, here he goes. He’s repeating again.” Because you know why I repeat? Because it’s going to stick in your head. That’s why you’re going to remember it. Absolutely. That was my my my father the same way. You know, when he was coaching, repeat, repeat, run the same play, run it again, run it again, run it again. And they were they were successful, you know, successful. So, yeah. Absolutely. Yes. It’s just like training with your weapons. You know, you’re takes like a thousand reps to get it down. So, you know that as a firearms guy, everybody everybody’s annoyed by the firearms instructor. You get new new new duty holsters in a new gun and you tell the guys, “Take it home before range day and do as many draws as you can.” Yeah. You know, nobody does it and they show up with a new holster and they’re like, they can’t get it out and you’re like, “Guys, it’s that’s why I told you to do this. We wouldn’t be sitting here on the line, me waiting for you to, you know, pull your gun out. This is crazy. Yes, there was there was just something on LinkedIn I and I and and I feels bad about this, but uh one particular individual, an IRS uh uh criminal investigative division, C they call them, criminal investigative division for IRS special agent. This goes back, it’s about two years ago. They were on a range out in Phoenix. He was killed on range day, training day by another individual on the range shot. I don’t know if it was an accidental discharge. Was the one fell too far forward than the other fellow was? I don’t I don’t know. On movement on movement of shoot and move, shoot and scoot and he was killed. I just I just saw yesterday on LinkedIn. I said, man, I said, I’m going to try to bring that up in with with Steve if we’re talking about firearms and gun weapons and that and he was killed because of that on training. And you’re thinking to yourself, I’m gonna go to training. Hey, today’s qualification day. It’s a it’s a it’s an it’s two hours and we’re done for the day. We got to go home. You know, it’s an easy day, right? you didn’t you didn’t make it home. You didn’t make it home from training. Yeah. It’s terrible. And unfortunately, too, a lot of those times it’s uh um firearms instructors shoot themselves a lot because they’re they’re complacent and they you know, it gets at you when when the guys are always like, you know, you’ll have a 4 hour, eight hour training block and they’ll be like, “Steve, we’re getting out of here in a couple hours, right? We’re not we’re not we’re not really staying past lunch, right?” Like that type of thing. Come on. Hey, hook hook us up, bro. Let’s go to for a long lunch. Come on. It’s right. and it gets into your head and you’re like, “Ah, nobody wants to be here.” So, what my old agency I used to work with and we’re um I had a partner for firearms training and that’s good because strength and numbers, you know, if you’re both staying strong and kind of repelling, it it it’s a lot easier. But, um yeah, man. Um Jack, can you can you describe a strange or bizarre thing you dealt with? All right. Um Philadelphia. Philadelphia. Um we’re we’re uh ffecting a federal arrest warrant and um in Philadelphia, North Philadelphia, very tough location just near Temple University and and um it wasn’t wasn’t wasn’t my case. We were in the the back. We were cover we were covering the back. Okay. So when covering the back, it was an open backyard. What I mean by that, it was an alleyway. There was a grassy area. Then there was a back door roof. And then up above the roof were were two windows. Now it’s an older home. home. Now, mind you, Philadelphia has got a lot of older homes. So, the team that’s going to go in about six man, six personnel team that’s going to come through the front, the array team, entry team, arrest team, uh we hear them go DEA, arrest warrant, bang. We knew they were going in. We hear the bang with the the breacher hitting the door, the ram hitting the door. They’re in glasses breaking. This guy was a This guy was a he was a he was he was a he was a baddie. There’s no doubt about it. He was a he was a he was a cohilo. He was a kilo a slinger up there in North Philly. So my partner and I, we’re doing our thing. We’re covering the back. So you think, okay, covering the back, you know, blas blas. Yeah, they’re going to get the guy inside, you know, whatever. Steve, we’re standing there. We’re watching the back door. All of a sudden, we hear this. We look up. This dude went right through the window, hit the low roof, hit the ground, and ran ran right by us. I look at my my partner I’m with, he’s a wheelman. He loves He loves He’s a very good driver. He loves to do donuts and spins out, you know, with the government cars and that. Hell yeah. I said I call I call I call him, you know, Bill. Bill, oh boy, here we go. I get in I get in the car, radio, this guy is running down south on Sixth Street and we’re freaking following this guy and this guy is dumb enough not to move to the pavement. He stays on the street. So, guess what we do? Work smart, not hard. So, we’re in a car. I said to my I said to Bill, “Okay, it’s a little slower. Little slower. Little slower.” Bang. I hit him with the freaking door, knocked him on his off his pins, got out got out of the car and just locked him up and not a scratch on the dude. We still had to take We still had to take him to Temple Trauma to get him checked because if he hurt, busted his head or whatever. Not a scratch. You and I, we would had glass in our face, glass in our karate all over. And it was just like he just went right through it. Now mind you, it was just it was a window with a wooden pane in the middle, like a wooden like up and down kind of slot, but he crashed right through it. You talk about movie Hollywood scene. No, man. This was this was real. And that was probably one of the weirdest things I’ve saw in Philadelphia. I mean, it was like like he didn’t even like when we cuffed him, he was like I said, “You okay?” He goes, “Oh, I’m good. I’m good.” You know, and okay. So any glad he cuts any bru? He goes, “No, no, I’m good.” He goes I said, “Okay, well you’re going you’re going in.” and he okay. But the one of the craziest things and because you know you you know and a lot of times we don’t do the stra the traffic stops like you guys. God bless you guys and gals. Please be safe doing that. Yeah, we teach it but it’s very very rare that we end up doing it. So you’re out there. Don’t ever get complacent. Don’t ever get complacent. We we got a sense of complacency. We actually got we got reprimanded for that because uh we should have stopped the guy on as soon as he came out that window. We should we should have had him and and uh the fell I was with was was a was a former college a D1 ball play baseball player and very fast dude and um I could you know I tried you know I’m I’m a 475 guy back in the day you know 40 you know I’m not not I’m not a 445 guy but uh but he was like we got called in. We got called in on it. No kidding. What we doing? where was your positioning? Um, you know, you you should know better than that. You like, oh man, dude, I’m like, Jesus Christ, you know, fine, fine. But we got the guy, you know, he’s safe and sound. It was good. Everyone’s good. So, but yeah, I learned from that. I mean, that guy must have been using his own product if he pulled a maneuver like that and he was totally fine. He he was he was he I think this was, if that right, he might have been a three striker and that’s why he was running, man. He was going and the feds were coming for him. You know, everyone knows the day a baby day a on the front and back. We’re coming in the DEA and it’s like, uh, these aren’t coming for Phil. These aren’t Philadelphia, Philadelphia PD guys. These are these are the feds coming for us. And, uh, we had great respect. I mean, the guys, I tell you, the the crooks up there in, uh, North, they had a lot of respect for DA back in the late 80s when I was there in the 90s because we were there for that crack cocaine epidemic and we were knocking the heck out of them, man. Knocking the heck out of them. That was probably one of the craziest things I saw besides other things like stupid things you know but you know agents fighting agents or whatever like that or you know that kind of that kind of crazy stuff but it’s true it’s true. So yeah we I mean and the feds too when they grab you like it seems like when you get charged federally you do actually end up going to jail. Oh definitely. Unlike these soft local blue state courts that are like, you know, everybody gets 30 slaps on the wrist. The flip side of that is we don’t get people jumping out of windows when you raid a house because they don’t really care because they know they’re going to go see the judge and get a little slap on the wrist. But when the feds come, I mean, I remember my um back in the day, my dad’s um police department, the chief secretary was the the sweetest lady. Like I used to go in there when I was a kid and she’d give me a lollipop and pat me on the head and so nice. But it it turns out she was also the secretary for like the police association and she was taking money. Oh jeez. From the police association because she was hard up and so she would take it and pay it back. But then you know it gets to the point where you take too much and you can’t pay back and then you just take. So it’s take take. She ended up going to getting charged federally and doing like eight years in prison for that for like a public trust. I don’t know. I don’t know what the federal charge was, but it was it sent shock waves. And I’m sure that’s the point. It was like cuz it’s a public trust thing. So, you emptied out like a benevolent association. You’re going to federal prison. Did that was that FBI got her? FBI or I was young. I was like a teenager in high school. But um probably they pro I mean especially because they’re not going to investigate them themsel it themselves. So probably the state and the feds came in and looked at it and they they looked at the charges and said, “Well, let’s go with the federal ones.” And uh yeah, man. I mean, everybody in town was like, “Whoa, she’s going to prison for eight years. Oh my god, she’s gonna die.” The the federal hammer comes in, man. That was the guideline. The federal hammer comes in, especially uh I’ll take it back. I know I just mentioned it earlier. You take it back to the crack cocaine wars. I mean, you you catch a a gangster out there with a minimal amount of crack and they’re looking at like five years been mandatory in federal p federal federal prison. I mean, crazy. I mean, I I I forget the the actual um amounts per se, but it was not a lot. It was not because it was such a epidemic and they were slinging it out there. Um, you know, we did it in we did investigations in Allentown. We did them of course in Philadelphia, but then by the uh by the 2000 it kind of softened a little bit. It kind of softened a little bit with the crack cocaine uh wars and I don’t I don’t think it even exists. And maybe some mom and pop locations it does but not like not like it used to. Not used. Yeah, it is so different the federal law like we we had um my old agency we had a bunch of national parklands. We had national park rangers and they had like for their OUIs on parklands it was catch and release. So they would bring them to our police department, book them, and then they’d had no right to hold them for OUI. We were always like, “What? What?” So, and then and then cuz Cape Cod’s kind of remote, they had they held their um ma federal magistrate hearings in the basement of the post office in Hyannis. Oh my god. So the federal magistrate would come down from Boston and the Rangers would go to the basement of the post office where he had a little office. It was like it was so not like what you imagine with the feds. were like, “Why are you doing the They’re like, “Yeah, it’s you know, couple days a week the magistrate comes down. We go bring them to the basement in the post office.” Oh my god, that’s funny. Yeah, it was it was really neat to be involved with it because it was so different. Like on their parklands, I’ve said this a million times. I’m sure I’m going to get messages like you already told the story, Steve, but they the federal park rangers on park lands, which are also town roads, they can order you out of the vehicle and look in your vehicle like with almost with with a much lower bar than we needed. But then they would follow cars onto state highways and town solely owned roads and do the same thing. And we would be like, “Hey, be careful. You’re you’re wearing your” Because we would swear them in. Yes. You’re wearing your your police hat right now. So, you can’t just search people in the car because you’re not on parked property. So, it was very a very fluid and dynamic situation. But, it was really fun working with them. They had all kinds of different powers. Stepping over their stepping over their lines or responsibility a little bit. They gota be careful with that especially when it goes in the courts and uh Yeah, you’re right about that. That’s a very good point. That’s a very very good point. Yeah, Matt and Mass isn’t like super friendly to fed feds either. Like I big surprise, right? But a lot of the southern the southern and western states just award peace officer status to federal agents because they’re cops, right? So, makes sense. in mass. Like I went to a Christmas party with a new FBI agent and he was like uh my supervising agent said um I can’t really get involved uh off duty unless it’s like a felony in my presence or there were these rules that he had to follow unless he was on business hours and it was like business hours you’re a cop like you’re 24 hours a day type of deal. So, anything serious, of course, he could intervene and help, but he he said, “Yeah, there’s these weird rules where I can’t in when I’m here in Massachusetts. There’s certain things I can’t do.” I’m like, “That makes no sense to me.” No sense. No sense whatsoever. But, you’re absolutely right about that. But, you know, the whole thing is I hope I that particular one I picked out of my brain. I mean, there there was so many others. No, it was great. That that one is just like something that’s like a little bit of a lesson learned there, too. Not only because of we safely got the dude, but yet maybe we could have done it a little better. We learned from mistakes, lessons learned kind of action. And that’s the greatest thing if you myself is if you’re going to tell me I did something wrong, I want to know what how I can correct this and make it right. And that was that was particular. And we we sat down and we we uh Monday morning like you said, Monday morning court, little debriefing, little debriefing. You know what’s the boy? I used to love those words, debriefing and oh my god. Yeah. Yeah. Let’s debrief this. Okay. Little counseling. Yeah, a little counseling. Just don’t put it. Just don’t put it on paper in my OPF, my official personnel file. Just don’t do that. Okay. Please don’t. Right. That’s a new thing they do now. And uh I’ve seen in and I don’t know if it’s just mass, but it’s all I know. And they’ll do um you’re getting a verbal counseling, but it will be written down in your file. What a verbal written like Yeah. There’s no verbal anymore. It’s like it’s verbal, but we write it down. Yeah. Don’t don’t be putting a laundry list together on me. Don’t be putting a case on me. Thank you very much. You know, right, Jack, can you tell us about your your most intense or terrifying moment on the job you can think of? All right, Philadelphia. Here we go. Uh, Philadelphia, this one has stuck in my uh my uh head for a long time and uh you know, I’m I’m good. I’m well I’m well over it, but uh working undercover, you see, one of the first times I’m out undercover and how can I put this? Um, we were working an investigation with another office and basically we had a confidential informant. We went to meet a bad guy up in North Philadelphia and we were going to do a 1 kilo purchase, 1 kilo undercover purchase for $25,000. So, we roll up there, meet the bad guy. Bad guy goes to where he’s supposed to pick the package. He’s followed. We got the location where he is and the bad guy then comes back. Where am I at the time? I am sitting in the car with a confidential informant by the guy by the bad guys loc by by the bad guy’s residence. He goes trips for the package. He walks gets the package, comes back, goes back into the house. He comes back out with a pack with the with the bag thinking, “Okay, cool. You know, we got we’re going to have we’re going to get a kilo here. Buy, you know, kilo. No problem.” Negotiated price for the kilo was $25,000. uh Uncle Sam’s money. So, as I come out of the car, leave the CS, sit in the car, I come out of the car, meet the guy in the street. Now, I’m being covered. I’m covered all which way up the street, down the street, around the block. I’m I’m covered. But you got to remember this is like around 1990,991. And yes, I’m being I’m recording. I have what we used to call a kell. Remember the Kels? They you listen to the monitoring and what’s going on so you can come in for the arrest scenario. So, I’m standing there talking to the to the fella. Did you bring it? Yeah, I brought it. Okay. Did you bring the money? I brought the money. So, I go and I pop the trunk. As I pop the trunk of the car, I feel this. Boom. 38 something goes in my ribs. I’m a young guy. I’m a young young agent. I’m My cover story is I’m a grad student at the University of Penn, Ivy Leager, you know. I have cover that way. I’m I’m I’m slinging dope all over the campuses, Drexel and Penn and Lasal and all that stuff, making money. So he ends up hitting me with a 38 snubnse in the ribs. $25,000 is in the trunk of the car. Bad move. We learned from a lesson. We learned that. Don’t ever bring the money to the location to the set. Flash it. Move it on. Well, you’re talking like I said 9091. Back then we didn’t think these things through. We now of course we did. So as he puts the weapon in my ribs, what do I do, Steve? I go back to my training. Bam. Hands up. Hands up like field goal posts. That’s a danger signal we called. Well, let me tell you something. And I said this before and others you want to see. You want to hear some foot foots come foot down the street car. I’ll never forget Howard and his vet with a with a gal named Nancy. Awesome agents. They blow around the corner. Wrong way, oneway street. This guy hears the noise, sees the noise. What’s going on, he belines it right for his front door. Well, in Philadelphia, same with Boston and that you have like maybe three steps, but there’s no porch, like three steps, like they call it a stoop to get in the front door. Well, about three of the lads, three of the guys that were running down the street just cleaned his clock. Took him out. Perfect. Perfect hit. Boom. Nailed him. And secured him. Took him in. As I’m I moved myself back to get cover behind the car. My boss came down, threw threw me in the car. She He gets guts me off the location. We leave we leave the confidential in former sitting in the car, you know. Yeah, whatever, you know. So, get the agent out of here, you know. Get the agent out. So, they end up doing it. They cuff him up. Now, here’s the funny part. When it the the arresting agents, the arresting agents were were standing them up and he says it’s now end of August because it was preseason football. Believe that night was like a Monday night or something. The Eagles were playing the Dolphins at the Vet. Veteran Stadium is no longer there. The birds. Go Eagles, baby. He says to the resting agents, he says, “Well, I guess I won’t be watching the Eagles tonight.” So, he knew the game. Yeah. He He didn’t care. So, not one key. And they went and did a search inside the whole location. They got a second kilo. went around the block, hit the location where the uh um the garage was. No dope found. No dope found inside there, but they did a search, but we ended up getting two keys. Uh I was safely off the location, recovered handgun. He would not cooperate. He did not cooperate. He went he went stone cold. He would not cooperate. And with that going non non-ooperational, he still got five on me for for threatening a federal agent. And then having two keys was a 10-year minimum mandatory. He had like about 15 years and he ate the charges. He ate the charges, man. Wow. I wonder if he was real. Well, maybe his supplier was a scary dude. Yeah, I’m sure he was. And and the thing is this. Or he owed he was afraid of his his wife and he didn’t want to freaking give her money back to the wife. He owed money to the wife or something and he did disappeared. But it’s the truth though. He he ate it. And and I don’t know how or I mean I don’t know if the the crook um he actually the guys from the the uh the guys from the the auto body shop there uh they were brought in on conspiratorial charges. We did conspir stuck on them. Uh but we I can’t remember that one but I think we had enough to get in uh exit circumstance get inside the location go for warrant telephonic warrant uh approval by the mag fed magistrate and then they searched but nothing. So he only so either that guy had two to give him and then he this this guy in in the auto body shop owed owed somebody for the two. They’re all intertwined, man. all compartmentalizing and they’re all intertwined. So, and that was that one shook me up. And I I will say this, Steve, if that happened to me in my my 40s, I probably would have uh asked to um you know I man I need some time here. But but when you’re in your 20s, you think you’re superhuman? Bring it on, man. What do we got next? And my boss kept saying, “Are you okay? Are you okay?” Because he’s a he was in his 40s at the time. He goes, “You okay? Do you do you want to anything?” I said, “No, Rick.” I said, “I’m good, man. I’m good.” You know, I’m good. And what a wonderful boss he was, man. A Boston guy. A Boston guy. He was a guy in Phil. He was amazing. And he was just awesome. I spoke to him about a couple weeks ago. We we keep in touch and we laugh about some of the stories, but that particular day we weren’t laughing because of um um something could have happened. And yeah, you still think about that, I bet. Oh yeah, sure. I mean, you know, you get you get some guy and goes, “Not today, kid.” I remember says, “Not today, kid.” And I said, “What?” And bang, I feel this thing and I’m like, “Oh, shoot.” And I’m like, “Bang.” I’m like, “There you go, man. There you go. There you go.” Yeah. I would just think about like what what would that what would that have done to my kidney? You know, that just Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Or just a 38 or cracked the ribs and tore across here. I mean, I don’t even want to discuss to think about that. But, um, it was successful, but he did eat eat the charges. And, uh, like, okay, dude. You gota you gota in in a in a weird way, you got to respect it. Like, all right. Yeah, sure. I mean, he would not give it up. I think he was just fearful that if he gave any information up and law enforcement knows out there, the guy the guys and the gals that are listening to it that’s been in it, he was probably thinking, man, if I give this up, they’re gonna they’re going to burn my house down. I got to kill my wife or kid or whatever. And but no, he he said, “Do it. Let’s do it. I’m not doing it.” So I’m like, “Okay.” All right. Bye-bye. Yeah. Bye. Yeah. Exactly. Wow. Um Jack. Yes, sir. Do you have a positive situation? Heartwarming, dare I say? Yeah. Yeah. On the island of St. Croy. Uh island of St. Croy. When I was a resident agent in charge down there, my favorite fishing rod. Yeah. I tell you, man, everyone thinks when I when I talk about being stationed down there as the resident agent in charge, I had about 19 uh 19 personnel down there. Ton of weapon carriers. It was a hide a highintensity drug trafficking area task force group in the cocaine corridor. And and the Caribbean division is is a very vast division. It’s it’s a huge. which goes from Freeport Bahamas all the way west of the Cayman’s all the way south to the Ruba Bon Air and Cororus South Trinach Tobago right off the coast of Venezuela and Colombia it’s a huge division lot lot a lot of water and you got to get around on planer boat there’s no doubt about it so uh that that respect it’s um it was quite entertaining if you could do if you could do an investigation if you can make a case in the Caribbean you can make a case anywhere in continental United States okay it really it really can because people are Well, it’s the probably the part of the coke’s falling out of the sky. It’s falling off the boats. Well, that’s true, but a lot of times you can’t pin it on anybody. You might find a a bail in the water. It’s 50 uh, you know, 50 keys of coke and it washes up on the shore and you have to take it as abandoned abandoned contraband. So, but everyone knows you you had to work around it. It’s small there. So, we it’s it’s just it’s just so small, but you have to work around it. So on on top of that uh we had a situation where you have a place on the west end of the island. Okay. So if you picture St. Croy 28 miles east and west seven miles north and south 50,000 population about 100 murders a year committed on the island. Very violent. Very very violent. So these two as a couple comes out of the airport. They instead of going right to the good part of the island they went and left. Not a good thing. They got caught in a place called I don’t call it out. It’s called Camper Rico. Okay. Camper Rico is on the west end of the island. It was old Kwanza huts, old It was an old uh military base out there during World War II. They used to bring the fighter pilots out there to uh practice how to land planes during World War II, the Marines and the Navy personnel when they go to the Pacific theater in World War II against the Japanese. So these huts were still there, but they were home. They would built them into homes like apartments. Very br you by yourself. You have to go in there as a team. So these two get lost in there. and they rape they robbed them and they beat them and it was not a good thing for tourism. So the commissioner the commissioner and the chief came stepped to me and then got the other head of the FBI Mike and Conrad the marshall and we all we we got together for a meeting and he says we have to shake this up because of this this can’t be going on. So we’re like okay. So what we did was one particular day we uh organized a game plan and we brought in the troops. I mean, you talk about the alphabets coming in. We had air units. We had out outside perimeter, interior perimeter, and we had the the assaulters going in. And man, we shook that place up. Now, mind you, we had the intelligence on locations, what to hit, search warrants, what bad guys need to go. We’re going to catch them dirty. They’re going to be hand either a knife on them or a gun on them or dope on them or something. And we did. We end up We ended up getting lucky. I said, “Okay, we our investigative intelligence paid off.” But we went in there like a freaking first marine division hitting the beaches manuima. And uh we went in and it was successful and when we took away crooks crime weight softened and we were getting phone calls for weeks on weeks afterwards. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you very much. I bet DEA for doing this. Thank you. Thank you very much. We we’d roll in there just for for you know sometimes we take like six of us or 10 of us. We rolled in there just to just to walk around with our vests on just to just to say like, “Hey, man. We’re still here. We’re not, you know, just, you know, if it was a down day, I let’s go. Let’s let’s vest up and let’s go out and see. Let’s go out and see what Campar Rico’s doing. She would get lucky on something, you know, and then we go out there and we we tool around and people be like, “Thank you.” From that one action, that place changed. That place changed. But when you did that to the people from that came on the island, it wasn’t good. It wasn’t good. So, but we did good. That’s heartwarming because when you’re telling these people, they don’t have a lot on the island. A lot of people, they don’t they don’t have a lot of stuff on the islands. And when they come out and you try to help them out, they’re they’re your people then, man. They they used to call us the Uncle Sam’s boys, the Continentalers. They used to call us Uncle Sam’s boys, the Continental. That’s awesome. Okay, man. Yep. Yep. Thank you, Uncle Sam’s boys and girls. Thank you, Uncle Sam’s boys and girls. Okay. Yeah, man. It’s cool. That’s cool, man. I love it. Yeah. You know what? The pe the local people we always talk about on the show. so many good people just living in bad areas and you know you could you could see it when that whole BLM BLM thing was exploding and um some reporters went into black neighborhoods and they were talking about it and um you know they weren’t getting the answers they wanted. A lot of the a lot of the black people that live in these neighborhoods are like thought my I had two kids killed by gangs. I want more. We don’t see the police enough. We want more police. Yeah, you’re absolutely right. Those don’t those only make it on the conservative um you know web pages and stuff. They don’t they don’t put those on the news. Yeah, I think you need, you know, when you have when you have a mission like that, you have to have you have to have knowledge. You have to have intelligence that’s going to be effective so you can go in there and do things to them. Vehicle stops, you know, a surveillance to see any type of, you know, hand to hands. You know, we we of course we don’t really work that a lot. We are more organizing the or excuse me, dismantling the international or domestic organizations, drug organizations, but yet sometimes you have to go out there and you got to shake the bushes. got to shake the trees a little bit sometimes and get them on their get them on their heels. And uh I think that that sends a pe sends a message to people and I know down there it was effective message and and in the end it was very heartwarming and we got the calls and and we kind of s we kind of uh knocked them down a peg or two. Absolutely. What was the local police force like there? Were they involved in that? Um you know that’s a great question. Unreliable. I I can’t speak uh enough because about the Virgin Islands Police Department. Yes, you’re going to have your baddies. You’re going to have them. The corruption. Yes. Did we arrest them on my tenure down there for four years? Yes, we arrested several of them. Absolutely. Why? Because they get a side hustle going and they’re still wearing the uniform. I mean, it’s it’s it’s one of those things that Yes, you’re going to have you’re going to have dirt anywhere and you have to you have to get that you have to sweep that dirt out. Uh we had to be very careful uh that some of the guys on the VIP uh yeah were were not favorable to the feds. We had to be careful what we said. Actually, we ca it came to a point later on in my tour down there that my guys had to carry recorders in their cars if and when they’re stopped because they knew our cars, you know, the trucks and the sport utilities you’re driving down there. So when they would walk up to a car, I would tell the guys, have them speak, have the recorder up by their sun visor, click it as they walk up so they’re not trying to harass them or muscle them. But it’s not it’s not every one of them. It was just a just, you know, a couple. I mean, I don’t know the man the personel. Believe it or not, I was just talking to the chief last night. Uh he now lives up in uh up north in there in uh one of the states up north, but he was down there for a number of years. He was a chief in in the Virgin Islands Police Department. You have the chief of police for St. Croy and the chief of police for St. Thomas and St. John. Then you have a police commissioner who was when I was there was on St. Croy and we had a wonderful relationship with them. I mean we had we ended up uh stepping up what we call a street enforcement team, a set team for them, a set I ended up training them, getting them getting equipment um back in the day. This I mean this is going back you’re talking like from 2001 to 2004, four years down there. Uh but yeah, you had to be very careful of who you’re going to invite to the party and you kind of knew who was working both sides and the person’s still in the job because they haven’t got enough information yet to charge the person. Um but other than that, I had a if I needed something, call the commissioner, call the chief, say my counterpart Charlie over in St. Thomas, you want what do you want? You want 200 20 uniforms standing tall tomorrow morning. You got it. I said I want the good ones. I want the good ones, right? You know, I want the good ones, you know. So, and they and they’d be there and and they’d be and they’d be rocking and ready to rock and roll. But yeah, that’s great, man. Yeah. The I know I’ I’ve heard of like some of the South American some cities and towns in um South America where they like lay off part of the police department because the government ran out of money and then they hire them back and then like that creates this like well now they need they have no money so they go to work for somebody else. who knows who. And then that person goes, “Oh, no. I’m still going to pay you, but you’re going to go back to the police department when they hire.” Yes. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. They don’t offer stability. So, these guys end up they got to provide for their families and they end up going, you know, going to the dark side. Yeah. They have they have a they have a rat then inside with the good guys and then they have to have to sneak it out. But what was good about down there, you you knew because it was it was small enough and that personnel size probably knew the families. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, you couldn’t take them territorial court. We had to take them federal court so that then when they get sentenced, bang, they’re off the rock. And uh a lot of times we get we work with other jurisdictions or other offices in Conis continental United States offices so that we can get them off St. Croy, come down say say Atlanta division, secure their arrest, secure their warrant, come on down, we’ll go get the person and get them off the island, get them out of here and then and then take them to trial up there in cones. And and I used to always tell him, we used to always say to the bad guys, listen, you’re going to go to a state. Forget about spelling the name of the state. You can’t even pronounce the name of the state. Like Minnesota, that’s where you’re going. You know, you know what I mean? So, and be like, “No, what do you want? What do you want to know? What do you want to know? How do I How do I stay here?” Because a lot of times is if we we came in and arrested them, they thought they’re going to go to territorial prison on the same on the same rock. Nope. You’re going You’re going basically you’re going to red onion. You’re you’re going to have the Red Onion in Southwest uh Virginia and you’re going to hang out there for for a pit for a bit. So, um it was a dance, Steve. It was a dance. It was a dance. For those that serve down there, I take my hats off. Those that are serving and that will serve down there. It is a treat, man. It is a freaking It is a rock and roll show. There’s no doubt about it. There’s no doubt. And if you’re not rock and rolling, you’re not doing your job down there. If you’re Everyone thinks, “Oh, you’re laying on the beach hang.” Yeah. In downtime. Absolutely. I’m I’m a water rat. I love the water. I mean, I just got done swimming before came, so my hair’s all freaking screwed up right now. I’m trying to, you know, I was trying to comb my hair and I was in the I was in the water, you know, and h I gota get to Steve. I gota go talk to Steve and that. So, uh, but yeah, other than that, um, it was it was a rock and roll show. I wouldn’t change it for the world. I the guys and gals that I worked with, I can go down the list of names and they were they never complained. They were like, “I don’t care if it was we just worked 36 straight, 36 hours straight.” They’d be like, “Go take a go take a nap in the conference room or whatever.” And um I remember the the chief who ended up being was my task force officer. He got up to the rank of chief. He got up to for the Virgin Islands on St. Croy. Wonderful guy. Wonderful guy. Heck of an investigator. I mean, I can go into investigations for another time. We were talking about several of them. Olympia Casa, Operation Triumphant, Operation Beach Party, Operation Tinfoil, just just destroying them. Destroying them so much that they do another episode on it, brother. Absolutely. I know. I know you’re want to get to things, but but please, I I apologize. I You know, they say give a Mick a mic. You know, I can talk. You’re talking to a Mick. I know exactly what you’re talking about. Exactly. There you go. There you go. You’re a good man, Steve. Good man, bro. I I love it, Jack. It’s awesome. Um and I mean that, too. If you want to have a second appearance, we talk about in-depth investigations. That sounds like it’d be a lot of fun. People love that. Crazy ones, man. Operation Olympia was a crazy one. Let’s do it. We’ll put it on the books. Jack, uh, popular popular question for the show. A lot of people listening uh, are thinking about be getting into law enforcement or they’re in backgrounds or they’re they’re doing ride alongs trying to figure it out. What advice would you give to new uh, police officers or federal agents just now getting into the game? Uh, I’ll be very very frank. It’s a it’s a re very rewarding experience. There’s no doubt about that. Absolutely very re rewarding career. My advice is get your education. You know, get that bachelor’s degree, get that, you know, master’s degree if you can. Um a lot of times, um education is very important for moving up the chain of canorce, right? I always I always say this, train, train, train. Learn to train. Make sure you continuously train. Be continually training, training yourself. Don’t just let it go. Once you got the uniform, the badge, you’re done. Don’t you got to keep training. Listen to senior people. Senior people listen to the ones that are worthy. The ones that have done it. Not the ones that think they’ve done it, but the ones that have done it. Get to the senior person. I was fortunate to lock up with a guy in Philly named Frank. Wonderful guy. Former NYPD detective. Him and I agents. We hit it off. We still to this day, you know, for many, many years, we’re we’re still uh we still communicate. And I And lastly, eyes open, ears open, and mouth shut. Yeah. Yeah, that’s how you learn, man. That’s how you learn. And it’s tough for guys like us Irish men to keep our mouths shut. Yeah. Especially when you’re new, when you’re brand new. Everybody really You’ll stand out and be appreciated if you take it all in and you and you you you don’t have to say nothing, but just, you know, choose your words wisely and just learn. Yes, sir. Yes, sir. Appreciate it. I know. I know we bounced around all the place. I hope your view viewers understand how we did it. And yeah, I just um I I really enjoyed it, Steve. I really enjoyed it. It was a pleasure, honor to have you, brother. So, when people want to get after uh Jack McFarland, where do they go? I got your website here and I understand that is going live like in hours. So, right now it’s Monday. This will come out Wednesday. So, by by the time this comes out, I think Jack McFarlanda.com will probably be up and running. I hopefully. Uh yes, sir. Uh this one like you’re looking right here is at LinkedIn. You can get me on LinkedIn, but I’m believe it or not, I’m I’m doing the uh the wa the worldwide web. uh jack mfallda.com you can check it out also uh you can find me if I may be so uh on LinkedIn and also on truth as well. So uh they’re my socials because I mean this whole thing is new to me. I never had this stuff, but now I do and I’m hoping that um it gets out and I would love to uh speak if you’re looking for a speaker on motivation, teamwork, leadership. If you want to bring me in for some training uh to train your troops, I you know carry my certifications for the tacticals and physical trainings and nice but but thank you for allowing me to speak that I really I really appreciate. My pleasure. And I will put a link to all that stuff to get Jack in the show notes so people won’t have to go searching for it. They’ll just be able to find it right there. uh follow Jack and um yeah, like I said, uh honored to have you on. Thank you for your time. Thank you, Steve, very much. And uh other than that, can I ask you I’ll ask you off air just is that is that okay? I mean, if you’re going to conclude or Yeah. Yeah. I’ll I’ll I’m going to do the um the exit like the outro. Okay. And then I’ll leave you in and then I’ll just come back when I’m done. Perfect. Perfect. Thank you very much. And to your audience as well, thank you very much, guys. Thank you, sir. The great Jack McFlland, ladies and gentlemen. Uh, great stories. Uh, really fun guest. Definitely going to get him in the books to come back. He’s just starting. He’s just getting started, ladies and gentlemen. So, follow his socials. Uh, unfortunately, I was already the first one to follow him, but you could be second, third, fourth, 10,000th. Um, right behind old Stevie boy. This is a time in the show when I thank the Patreon sponsors. If you really love the show, you’ve heard all the episodes, all the free content, and you think I would love to show my love for the show and for old Gingerface monetarily, you can do that through the link in the show notes and join the Patreon. If you do, Sergeant or above, you will get a shout out on the show. These are the lieutenants who I’m talking about is great and powerful. Andy Biggs, Joey Langley, thank you, sir. The great Kyle Roberts, Michael Roach, Roach Machines, AI Solutions. Check him out. The great Thomas Connell. Now to the sergeants. Adam McMahon, Adam Mihal, Brad Thompson, Brett Lee, Dan Carlson from Burley Board. 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