TPS E36: (DR., Detective, SRO) Beth Sandborn / Pennsylvania – Thingspolicesee

TPS E36: (DR., Detective, SRO) Beth Sandborn / Pennsylvania

In this episode Steve and Ken interview Pennsylvania Officer Beth Sandborn.  Beth works an area 10 miles north of Philadelphia where the policing begins to get more rural.  She has some great stories from the job and really good insight into being  a school resource officer. 

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hey guys before the show starts I justwant to take a minute to thank you forall the five star reviews on iTunes wetruly appreciate it we’re up well over200 now it and it really does help andhelp legitimize the show when people aresearching for something new to listen toit’s you know it just lets some see thatpeople appreciate it and might be worthchecking out so thank you very much forthat if you’d like to contact the showif you’d like to be a guest if you wantto go on things police c-calm you can doall that there contact us or apply to bea guest just this website’s been ablessing it’s it’s just really cool it’skind of like um just a central hub whereeverything for the podcast can canhappen also you can listen to thepodcast there and you know we have anaffiliate link for Amazon there if youwouldn’t cost you anything but if youclick through it and do your purchaseson Amazon through our link we’ll get asmall kickback also there is a donatepage where you can donate to the showyou know not expecting a windfall ofcash here but you know a couple bucks acouple bucks here and there really doeshelp this show pay for its expenses andkeep bringing you the episodes that youlike so it’s it’s much appreciatedalright folks without further ado here’sthe episode this is things police seizefirst and accounts with your oast stevegoldhey guys welcome to the podcast atinterviews police officers about themost intense humorous and bizarremoments on the job I’m Steve and with meas always is Ken Roybal hello Ken hellohow’s everything with you out thereeverything is very very niceit’s um warmed up a bit it’s been I livein the high desert but it’s been like inthe 20s for a while so it’s actually 60today so I feel like it’s a specialtreat I’m here in Washington to work soI can I can see I live in the forest nowyou’ve seen pictures of my house manit’s like someone said you live in anational park but it’s just Washington’sbut it’s very it’s very nice todayconsidering what the weather’s been likeso I’m very very happy today I can seethe Sun excellent yeah your yourproperty’s beautiful man it looks likeum it’s like dripping with lushnesseverything looks at least so many treesbeautiful okay today our guest has hasquite the title she works at the lowerGwynedd township in Pennsylvania hertitle is doctor detective SRO BethSanborn mm-hmm so she’s umshe likes school she likes educationthat’s when I’m that’s what I’m gettingfrom this well some people do like thatI’m not one of them but god bless herfor doing that she’s way in school she’sa doctor in the cop so I don’t know Idon’t know if you I was thinking aboutthis if you wanted to just go ahead andcancel this podcast cuz she’s smarterthan both of us put together I justsaying I’m just gonna have her talk andwe will not interject yeah just out ofcuriosity before we start when they saya township there’s cities there’stownships there’s towns what what isthat hell mean on the East Coast youknow that’s I don’t know because thisTownship has four villages within it aswellOh sometimes the judges have police liketheir own police so village policeTownship police County police so I don’tknow so a Township can encompass so okayI’mconfused cuz it cuz now you just broughtsomething else into it that there’svillages now yeah I don’t know it’s notlike that mass really so I don’t knowthat’s I don’t know what townships areI’ll have to ask heroh okay okay yeah cool okay let methrough the magic of technology dialmagic don’t mess it up man I won’t nevernever ever mess it upBeth are you there here’s some rumblingsI hear rumblings I hear thingsalright there she is welcome to the showshe is well thanks for having meour pleasure you’re on with Steve andKen ken is co-hosting and retired LAPDoh hey hey Beth how are you doing outthere I’m good thanks how are you thankyou do you get some snow uh no not yetbelieve it or not I actually just camein from the hot tub it’s I it’s likefifty some degrees out there hot tub sonice and loose for this interview you’reready to goyeah well for January but inPennsylvania but I’ll take itcool excellent I remember I we wentcamping in Pennsylvania and you canpretty much walk on the deer there dothey come up to your hot tub and youfeed them little treats yes and if youcome from a hunting family then yourfreezer is always full yeah I know a guywho used to go down there from Cape Codand he said he went out there and he waslike flabbergasted he said like like 15deer stood up in a field and they justshot all of them just run back toMassachusetts so we were we were justchatting about you work for a Townshipand that’s not something we’re familiarwith in in that Township there’svillages so is the township just a townand adding ship on the end it’s justfancy okay so Pennsylvania is kind ofunusual we’re one of the twoCommonwealth’s in the country and we’rereally fractured when it comes topolicing there’s over 400 policedepartments in Pennsylvania and believeit or not most of them have like tenofficers or lessso places like Pittsburgh andPhiladelphia they’re actually more oftheanomaly where smaller towns have theirpolice departments so I come from aPolice Department of 18 from bottom totop there’s there’s only 18 of us wework really closely with all of ourneighboring townships because you haveto when you’re so fractured and you’resuch small jurisdictions you have tohave a good working relationship witheveryone around you in order to achieveyour successyeah that’s similar to Massachusettsalso a Commonwealth every every chiefevery town towns chief has his littlefiefdom and you kind of all worktogether and maybe it makes thingsdifficult less you get sworn in and allthat you get sworn in all thesurrounding townships no but we do havemutual aid agreements we do have actsthat are signed by by county judges thatallow us the ability to enforce lawsoutside of our jurisdiction withineyesight when we’re requested forassistance things like that yes he cancan you guys were split out inCalifornia you have peace officer statuswell yeah the East Coast that’s notalways the case we you walk over thetown line they say you’re just anotherguy that’s interesting Beth because inCalifornia you’re a California peaceofficer so I can go from once one sideof the state all the way to the top andI have I have peace officer powers nomatter what and it doesn’t matter whatcounty I’m in what city I’m in and thenand then in California also you have youhave municipal police you have Countysheriff’s and you have the HighwayPatrol which is a state troopers type ofthing so those are the three pretty muchthe three jurisdictions period and thenyou guys have you or say what’s aCommonwealth so a Commonwealth is just adifferent designation for a state theother Commonwealth is Virginia and thenthere’s the District of ColumbiaWashington DC where is the rest of themare our state’s so Commonwealth tiesback to original roots and I wasn’treally aware this was gonna be a historyso I’m really hoping that my socialstudies are up to I mean I can call oneof my kids in here to give a true andaccurate description but the one thing Ido remember from middle school in highschool is that Pennsylvania and Virginiaare the two Commonwealth’s in thecountryso are you saying while statue sits asan impostor Commonwealth only by namethe third please forgive me I again yeahI didn’t I didn’t prep my social studiesbefore this they might justly all atthat still it might just be a state nowand you’d have to worry about it Bethbecause Steve and I are gonna believeeverything you say anyway so we’re goingto be late Oh smart and pretty I am inmodest I’m still waiting my camera toclick in so we’re good yes interestingcuz I like talking to people from acrossthe country on these podcasts it’s justthe different setups and the towns andeverything and Steve you were mentioningin Massachusetts where you in Californiayou can you can be in pursuit from youknow for 150 miles you can be in pursuitfor three hours or something like thatand you have jurisdiction based on yourpeace officer status all the way throughthe state of California but you weresaying something about you have to havesomething an agreement or something togo into the next town okay so you’repulling up a whole host of differentissues as far as police pursuits go andand I’ll tell you just withprogressiveness of laws and theliability conscious state that we’re inright now it’s it has to be an unusualset of circumstances for a pursuit tooccur for the most part pursuits getcalled off relatively quickly so nothere are no three-hour pursuits in thisarea you’ll find it more so in citiesbut when it comes to suburban areaswhere we’re more suburban and we’re oralit’s just the the costs outweigh thebenefitsso you’ll find it’s incredibly rare fora pursuit to occur around here and thenwell my question would be if you’repursuing for three hours do you stop forgas Midway do you say like I’ll be backI’m just gonna run to the local quickyMart and fill up and grab a soda andthen jump back into itwhat depends if you if your lunch comesinto play then there’s breaks and thecrooks are required to stop there’sthere’s laws in California where theyhave to stop and say where this is lunchbreak and then they pick up after andthen you knowyeah so I all bye and then it’s likewell no sandwich not Turkey and that youhave to go back and decide on mail thebad guys in California cooperate ohthey’re very kind very kind they haveyou know it’s a touchy feely type ofstate but yeah it’s just it it just isinteresting to me Steve and I was spokenabout this quite often when we wereworking backgrounds together and he wassaying yeah there has to be some kind ofagreement or if you go into another townand stuff so I’m not I don’t I don’tmean to get off on a different subjectbut I was just curious how that allworks yeah if if we were to have apursuit if there were to be somethingunusually hot and particularly violentwhere it where it necessitated a pursuitwe’re not stopping at each border andasking the chief to come out and requestin the district justice to sign a courtorder you know we’re gonna go and we’regonna follow it through to the ends andthen we’ll worry about that partafterwards and I’ve never reallyencountered a situation I’ve never heardof a situation where a pursuit stretchedthrough multiple jurisdictions whetherit ended successfully or not injuries ornot arrests or not we’re the policesuffered any type of repercussions forjurisdictional issues because you’retalking about a continuation of eventsyou’re talking about exigentcircumstances so you’re permitted tocontinue on and pursue figuratively aswell as literally yeah bet there’sprobably the same you guys sound thesimilar is mass’ there’s first of allthere’s mutual aid agreements that areagreed like where I worked we had a 15Town mutual aid agreement so you couldon duty you could go any one of thosetowns and force a law off-duty you onlyhad power really in your jurisdictionunless it was a felony in your presenceso like can it’s just this patchwork oflaws and it’s it’d be so much easierjust to give states peace officer sayslike California but these old-schoolstates in the East Coast they are reallyattached to how they’re set up the lawgoes way way way back so like Beth wassaying like there’s there’s mutual aidagreements to kind of fix it there’s apatch here patch there and it it allkind of works out in the end but if youdidn’t have any of those mutual aidagreements for us in mass who would andit’s all has to do withCybil law like speeding or something ifyou’re in pursuit of a felon you cankeep going through towns mass but ifit’s civil like speeding or unlicensedor something like that you’d have tostop at your town border unless youcalled and said can I permission butthen we have the the agreements thattake care of all that so I know that’sconvoluted long answer but it’s kind ofa mess and well actually speaking ofsimilarities with Pennsylvania andMassachusetts fortunately enough there’sthis thing called the internet thesedays and Google has so kindly informedme that you are correct Massachusetts inKentucky are the two other Commonwealthso there’s four not two already I standto easily be corrected so it’sMassachusetts Virginia Pennsylvania andKentucky and I’m sorry continue on asyou areI appreciate your intensity of yourresearch that’s great I’ve run into thiswith Steve before he is an Einstein whenit comes to intelligence and stuff and Idon’t even mess with him Beth when itcomes to you know with Common Wealthknowledge at least yeah that’s histhat’s his thing you know how to boil anegg that’s a different story for Steveanyways Beth we want to get we want toget down to it can you um can you takeus back to the first like hot call orthe first call you went to as a policeofficer that kind of got your bloodblood going well okay so I think you’regonna find with a bunch of the questionsthat you have for me that I’m I’m notyour typical so I think some of myanswers are gonna fall a little bitoutside of the box but also fit yourcriteria so it’s funny if you were toask me when I had my first adrenalinedump so I work in a little teeny tinysuburban area just outside ofPhiladelphia Pennsylvania we’re a veryaffluent community with a lot of money alot of names that might be recognizableand so therefore we don’t have atremendous amount of crime and yet wellwe do have our burglaries because wellwhere there’s money bad guys are gonnacome for it but we also have a lot oflarge farms we have horses we’ve gotthese beautiful winding roads and I likeanimals I don’t go to the extreme whereI’m a vegetarianbut I don’t hunt but I have no objectionto eating anything but I’ve always hadthis one rule with my co-workers when wehave a deer struck and the deer needs tobe put down if my coworker will shoot itI’ll drag it off to the side of the roadno matter how bloody beaten up ordisgusting it is and it just it worksfor us I have this objection to shootinganimals even when they’re in pain withtheir if they’re rabid if they’re soanyway I had a similar agreement withone of my sergeants he Zack same as youjust yeah I don’t know what it is I justto me animals can’t be inherently badand they look at me with those sweetlittle eyes whether they’re rabid aretrying to attack me or not oh my god nono no no so um it’s a night shift I’mI’m on patrol I’m driving down one ofour border roads and there’s a deerlaying in the middle of the road andit’s just kind of sitting up there andit’s just kind of looking around it’sdark it’s quiet there are nostreetlights my headlights fall upon itso I get out of the car and I’m like ohcome on come on and I get up close mythroat and I’m kicking it in the buttlike come on just go run away okay yeahlike you know you shake it like resusciannie are you ok are you ok call my withit it’s got a tent up and it’s lookingat me it doesn’t appear to be injuredI’m like well come on go run away and itdoesn’t and it does try to get up ittries to flop around and and I actuallyhad to take a couple minutes just psychmyself up because I figured alright youknow what it’s the middle of the nightthere’s nobody around I mean no one iswatching this you can do it you canshoot this theater and I kind of stoodoff to the side and I had this littlelike internal dilemma this moral dilemmagoing back and forth and I figured allright you know what come on you can dothis I psyched myself up I walk up tothe deer and I shoot it and it only tookone shot to kill it and it’s good theylet people sit there empty a magazinewe’re kind of discouraged from doingthat but you know so I shot the deer andit it took a moment for it to die andthen I was I was convinced that it hadto see that it was deceased so I Irecall stirred andI walked back up to it and I grabbed itby its back legs and I dragged it off tothe side of the road and I went back inand I sat in my police car and that wasmy first-ever adrenaline dump becauseit’s funny I noticed that my legsstarted to shake my knee were knocking Iwas having trouble with fine motorskills with my fingers and you know Isat there for a minute and I really hadto focus on my breathing because what Inoticed was that I didn’t exert myselfbut I was suddenly taking some deepbreaths and I was consciously aware ofthe fact that I was breathing and then Istarted yawning and I’m like wah I’ll bedarned isn’t this embarrassing but itwas something that to me wastraumatizing I’m like I well I’m donewith that I did it and if I have to doit again I will but gosh darn it likeI’m gonna take every opportunity not toso is that a hot call no but that was myfirst ever memorable adrenaline dump noI really appreciate that story becauseit’s just you don’t know what’s gonnaget your adrenaline going and when youstart police work you don’t know youknow and that’s the job is somultifaceted that you know you’relooking an animal in the eye and youhave to kill it that’s that’s gonnareally get to some people and I workedwith people like that that really reallygot to them and you know when I workedit was um I didn’t like like tragicmedical calls they like they screwedwith me over everything else soeverybody kind of has their own thingbut I kind of love that story cuz it’svery different you know it is I meanlisten I can go through a hot call and Ican go through the tones going out and Ican go through pursuits and as we go onand talk a little more I have some moretraditional stories and some things thatstick out in my mind but that’s a littleunusual I mean I’ve also been on theother side of it where I’ve had anofficer asked me to hold the flashlightwhere he pulls the dead deer off to theside of the road pulls out a pocketknifeand cuts out the tenderloins to bringhome so real policing that is country Ilove that that’s do you guys have a listwe used to have a list for a struck deerthat we would you know people will callthe station and say you know if you geta deer let me know any time of day I’llcome get it and they come to the highwaypick up the meat it’s funny that you saythat because I’ve been on the job forjust over 20two years and when I first started thatwas a really popular thing now againwhen you’re married to a hunter um andyou have access to him 24/7 sometimesthat list falls by the wayside yeah wehad a game warden kind of code throughtown and he’s like yeah you’re notreally supposed to just give out deerthat could hit like that they need to betagged and there’s needs to be paperworkand we were like oh sure sure okay waiton that see you next year jump on thatwe get some paperwork here yeah I guessin the last 22 years things haven’tchanged much oh oh goodness gracious thelast time I saw 120 miles an hour on myodometer was probably 1999 yeah thosedays are a little long gone yeah likeyou said for the pursuit pretty mucheverywhere it’s been cut pretty short ofdoing pursuits for most things they haveagain we’re so very liability conscienceand we have so much technology that’savailable to us we figure as long as youcan get some basic information a vehicledescription perhaps an operatordescription license plate the directionto travel a timeline you know there aresome barriers that we run into like Isaid with us being so fractured and andhaving a radio delay getting from oneTownship to the next but I mean in theend I would say it’s successful we’remore progressive we’re trying to keepthe community safer we’re trying toachieve the goal and minimize anycasualties along the way yeah good goodI’m sorry I was gonna ask Beth can youplease define with regard to police workcan you define progressive well there’sthere’s so much technology that we haveavailable to us our mobile dataterminals that we have in our cars allowus to complete so much I mean we haveaccess to running criminal histories anddriver’s licenses and getting picturesas well as any court documents policingat least in our area is so heavilyfocused on training and Retraining andconstant education to help us deal withemotionally disturbed people withvarious subsets of society to make surethat we’re treating people fairly andequally to make sure that we’re beingsensitive to make sure that we’rede-escalating before we before we jumpup to levels of force and again it’s allwith the intent of being able to protectand to serve and to to best protect ourcommunities and to be involved andinvested again while minimizing any anyextra trauma okay so you guys atechnologically almost like we just havemuch more access to much moreinformation yeah but I think Beth wasalso mentioning some things that we’rehearing in the news about criminalreform and all that kind of stuffcriminal justice reform and all thatyeah I I find it it it plays into ourdaily lives I would say years ago thecriminal justice system was very focusedon punishing the offender where we kindof left our victim out to dry and theywere just a tool that we would use to beable to punish the offender and I feelas if criminal justice system thependulum has swung so far in theopposite direction that now we’re veryvictims ettrick that we’re doingeverything that we can to to help themmake that victim whole again as aprimary objective and then going afterthe offender more so as a secondary nowI I can’t speak for everyone and againkeep in mind too I haven’t mentioned ityet but my primary focus is withjuvenile justice so I work exclusivelywith juveniles and you know law as youknow is different than adult long yeahthere are so many protections that areput into place so many interventionsthat we can try that our goal is to makesure that juveniles who are victimizeddon’t then in turn become victimizerslater in life that they don’t act outany trauma that they’ve received so it’sreally very important at least in thejuvenile world that we’re protecting ourvictims to make sure that we’re notcreating this cycle of violence yeah thelast time I was in patrol I was assignedin 1997 was the last time I workedpatrol and even back then nobody wantedto arrest juveniles because there wasjust this multitude of additionalpaperworkyou had to fill up just for a juvenileand it wasn’t like you were arrestingthem because I mean you were arrestingthem but but you can’t be charged with acrime as a juvenile or you can’t beconvicted of a crime in California as ajuvenile so you knew you were kinda likespinning your wheels and doing all thishumongous amounts of extra work for andthe cops thought they were coddling thejuveniles and all this but this is goingback to 1997 well I’ll tell you a funnything is that I assumed our juvenilecaseload in January of 2015 and that wasjust following the Penn State JerrySandusky Joe Paterno scandal so when Ilaud changed in January of 2015 so myforte or you know I came right in aslong as we’re changing as requirementswere changing and it was almost likethat day my my colleagues and myco-workers my partners were like yeahI’m not touching juveniles I’m not doinganything with juveniles so there hasbecome that any call any call forservice or any encounter with juvenilesthey just send my way so of course Imake a joke that if they respond to amedical emergency in the nursing homewith a 92 year old patient withdifficulty breathing they’re like wellthis person used to be a juvenile let’ssend it over to bed once you get aspecial two people start shoving themall at you yes suddenly everyone hasforgotten that they’re allowed to talkto juveniles certified that I can’t dothis it’s gonna that’s a problem I thinkyeah so you must working with juvenilesyou must have a stranger bizarre story Ifeel like everything I do is is strangeand bizarre so as far as juveniles Imean I some very unusual disclosures butif I if I can some of my favoritestrange and unusual we’re back fromPatrol days because then you just getexposed to everything so you know asimilar similar suburban road the middleof the afternoon and our most unusualcalls involve animals because wellthey’re so unpredictable we had gotten acall of a flock of turkeyin the area not all that unusual in andof itself and I worry that by the end ofthis interview you’re gonna think I’m sobackwoods country you may never speakwith me again no no that I’m with you Iworked in a rural community but Ken Idon’t know about Ken I mean Ken have youever shot a deer but those misery Ididn’t see a deer until I came out toWashington and 20:18great animal stories for you so we weget a call of these turkeys and I Drivedown I drive down the road and lo andbehold they’re they’re kind of they’rewalking in the street they’re crossingnot at crosswalks and they’re just kindof wreaking havoc but there’s not atremendous amount of traffic on thisroad anyway so I pull up and I’m in amarked patrol car and I don’t reallyknow what to do because they don’t teachthat in the police academyor at least if I get my car up close tothem it should intimidate them and Ishould be able to just kind of get themout of the wayone would think but they were defyingturkeys which makes me think thatperhaps they were juveniles so I’m notentirely but they just wouldn’t get outof the way and I thought okay well ifthe police car doesn’t work let me justtake it up a notch and let me use my airhorn so I I get the air horn which letsout this really loud you know ah andwhat I found was each time I hit the airhorn the turkeys would respond back withthe gobble like you’ve got to be kiddingme so I would hit that uh and I’m likestop it are you kidding so then itbecame funny and yeah I mean after aboutten or twelve hits of the air horn likeI’m drawing people out of the half houseI’m like yeah I don’t really know whatto do so I figured all right well that’snot working so I went to open up thedoor because I figured you knoweverybody responds when a cop comes outbecause now you mean business and I goto open up the door and the one turkeystarts to peck at my car door yeah andif you’ve never seen a turkey up closethey’re big and big and ugly they areugly and they have really sharp dewclawsso I try to open up the door and theturkey but for the most part tells me toget back in your car and now I’m trappedin my car because I don’t know what todo with this flock of turkeys thatnow surrounding my car well my partnerpulls up behind me and I can see in therearview mirror that he’s laughing hegot on the radio and calls out that he’son location and doesn’t think that I’mgonna need any further backup and hecomes out and he’s hunter Joe mountainman kind of guy he gets out of his carhe’s not intimidated by them at all andjust stomps around and winds up chasingthem out of the way and frees me from mytrapped police car that’s funny they arethey really are kind of intimidatingbecause I was in Natural Resources forfour years and I went on Turkey callsjust like that people get freaked outthey’re like these turkeys running outthe road and it’s pecking at likehubcaps and you know it’s and they actso weird and you get there when I wasbeing trained I one of these turkeycalls and my supervisor is like wellthey’re turkeys because why do you thinkpeople you call someone a turkey becausethis is what turkeys do and I said wowI’ve never put that together that theanimal the turkey as an animal is just aweirdoyeah yeah and pretty bizarre totallywere mocking you I know I I kind of feellike you know when it comes to animalsthough I I got my revenge we had anothersimilar if you’re interested in anotherunusual animal call yes we had gotten acall of loose pigs in the area againsorry for sounding like I love itpigs and I show up on scene I’m met bythe homeowner who thinks this ishysterical and he walks me out into thebackyard and lo and behold there’s twopiglets there now listen we are not thatrural I mean you know we’re ten milesnorth of Philadelphia or a nice littlesuburban Township but there’s two pigsthere and they’re just they’re happythey’re just walking around eating grassand I don’t know what to do about itagain also not taught in the policeacademy if I were to redo mopedcurriculum I would probably add asection on animals shall you help mewith these pigs Beth they’re not they Iwould say like my dog is 35 pounds it’ssmaller than that um they’re they’redomestic cat size maybe maybe a largedomestic cat oh wow yeah yeahlook adorable yeah yeah he’s super cutewell and and as you hear the end of thestory so I get to the again I don’t knowwhat to do about this and I figurealright well I get this brilliant ideathat perhaps if I try to chase themthey’ll run home because they’re clearlytheir pets there they are not wildanimals lo and behold it worked so Ichased them and of course then the jokesof the pig chasing the pigs didn’t taketo catch on to I chased them through abackyard through a tree line and we gotto a barn where there was a cute littlesign outside you know pig crossing andand all these adorable little things andwe go into the barn and the barn is setup like a residence but clearly a barnresidence animals live here but therewas furniture there was a televisionthere was a sofa there were dog beds onthe floor there were tables and chairsbut there was also hay and there wasthere was farm equipmentI go to knock on the the primary housedoor and this woman comes out and shehad no idea that her pet pigs hadescaped from their own home so she tookus back out to the barn and sheintroduced us she got the pigs backinside and were able to secure them andwe we call those types of residents veryeclectic yeah she treated her pigs verywell and they had much better housingaccommodations than some of ourresidents do wow that’s really weirdthat is odddo you recall their names I don’tremember their names and it would havebeen fantastic had I but just the factin one part that sticks into my head isme not very gracefully chasing thesepigs through a backyard just to see if Icould get them to go home it’s one ofthose moments in police work when you’relike am I actually doing this yeah it’snot one of my more proud moments but youknow it’s it makes for a good story yeahwe had a we had a cops transfer to ourplace we that I was working on Cape Codwhich is on the ocean very unique kindof community but rural most of the yearand we had cops transfer in from citiesand state agencies and they would get acall from dispatchgo to you know National Seashore andhelp the park stand by with a snappingturtle in the road oh they would comeback in the radio and go what no this isa jokegot your ass to the turtle I have totell you guys this is all foreign to mework ends like a fish out of water hereeasily I did not participate in any ohyou’re in the Pacific Northwestoh yeah there’s there’s all kinds ofanimals all over the place it’s it’sinteresting out here it’s a differentworld than California I remember back anumber of years ago when they the bigthing in California was very popular toget pot-bellied pigs and the peoplewould get these pigs when they’re justlittle why don’t you call them pup pigsor something they were just adorablelittle things you can hold them in yourhand and stuff but then people weregetting very disillusioned because thepigs would then grow into actual bigchubby pigs and slobs and stuff and theyand then what they weren’t too cute pigsif they wear when they first got him sothey it were being dumped off atdifferent places so things when they’relittle they’re awesome cute they makethe little noises and they have cuteblue eyes and nose and I just fall inlove with them but then they grow intoreal big pigs I remember I remember thattrend people getting shoes for them foryou know so they don’t ruin the hardwoodfloors I remember that that’s funnybecause they’re smart I see there somepigs are smart as a five year old sowhich could be good and bad yeah yeahthat’s interestingbut that’s a good pig story that’s goodBeth do you have a you have a mostintense or terrifying colleague likesure I knew I have two that really stickout one that involves me I can recall alot of the details of an and anotherkind of ancillary but was working a dayshift and I was the OIC the officer incharge that day and we were standing outback at the police station the day waskind of wrapping up so we were reallyjust expecting to go home no no concernsno worries and the county tones went outover the radio which means that it’sit’s everybody’sstop what you’re doing and listen upsomething’s about to happen and and youalways kind of hope that your callnumbers don’t come out after the countytones you know you’re all standingaround and here Boop and everybody stopsit gets real quiet and you just hopethey like you they’re calling after andand our County dispatch put out anofficer assists that a k-9 officer a fewtownships away from us was in activepursuit and had been reportedly shot inthe head and and while no one else inthe community was aware of what wasgoing on because we were a few townshipsaway it felt to us who were standingaround that the world just dots on adime not very quiet and our movementsbecame very slow and very exaggeratedbut I’m sure to the casual onlookernothing appeared out of the ordinary nosince we were standing around the policecars and I was in charge I jumped in thecar we were too far away to be a primaryresponding assist agency meaning that wewere a few townships away it’s notoutside the norm that we would go overto respond but because we were farenough away and there were so manypolice officers between us and where theincident was occurring that we wouldwait so I jump in the car everybodystands outside the window and I rememberopening up the computer to be able to topull up the call so I could see thedetails see the officer involved becauseof course we all know each other and youjust hope and you pray that it’s notyour friend and you hope and you praythat this is just a miscommunication andit’s not actually in fact the case but Iremember opening up the computer and Ican see myself sitting in the driver’sseat and just trying to get my fingersto work to pull up the active callstrying to make sure that I’m continuingto breathe trying to make sure that theguys who are standing around me are allstill with me and okay let’s hang on asecond let’s take a moment let’s breathelet’s focus not do anything stupid holdon and pull up the active call so thatwe could see the details we found thatthe officer who was inhe was in fact the k-9 officer his dogwas was with himit was incredibly traumatizing it wasridiculously intense I can picture thatday I can picture every detail aboutthat day including what my plans werethat evening and as we were as I wassitting in the car and everyone wasstanding around me the incoming shiftwas was coming around the back of thestation so that they could come in andstart their day and even they could tellthat there was something different aboutthe air and about our demeanor and inour stance and the oncoming sergeantcame in to relieve me and he’s stillstanding in jeans and a t-shirt he’sguys uniform slung over his shoulder andhe says all right you know let’s getourselves togetherhe put a call in to the chief while Iwas kind of briefing everybody as towhat was going on and the chief sent ouroncoming shift down to the township toassist and kept us who were on day workto stay back and and to maintain ourTownship because we weren’t gonna leaveour Township without police services andthat was one of the longest nights thatI can think of and we didn’t even reallyget stuck staying all that late it wasmaybe only another hour or two but itfelt like a lifetime because when you’renot there but you know little bits andpieces of information you’re dying forit like like a starving man with foodyou you just need the little morsels ofinformation um the officer did notsurvive it was it was a very dark dayfor a lot of us in in our area of thestate because we’re not I don’t want tosay that we’re not accustomed to it butin the suburbs it’s an incrediblyunusual set of circumstances not to saynot to suggest that it’s any lesstraumatizing when it happens in an urbanenvironment but unfortunately I thinkwe’re a little bit more desensitized toit and while it’s still traumatizingit’s it’s different when it’s an unnamedbrother that we just kind of standalongside versus someone who you know myname and my face so that was that wasparticularly difficult andand I would say that was probably a moretraditional intense and terrifying callthe other one that I can think of Iactually talked about regularly whenwhen I speak to police academy classesand to families of law enforcement myhusband is a police officer as well andhe is a former sniper from on the SWATteam and firearms instructor and trainerand all that good stuff and in 2012there was a SWAT call that went out itand I’m not on a specialized unit 2012there was a SWAT call that went out andas it turns out it was a police officerfrom a neighboring state who wasoff-duty armed and involved in adomestic situation with his wife and hecame up so our area barricaded himselfand it turned into a barricaded gunmanhostage situation and my husband was thelead sniper on that call we’ve beenmarried for 20 years he’s been a policeofficer for 23 years I’ve been a policeofficer for 22 years I know what it’slike to be a cop I know what it’s liketo be a cop spouse I know what it’s liketo be a cop mom so I tell spouses and Itell family members the worst thing thatyou could possibly do is watch the newsdo that to yourselfdon’t subject yourself to thatinformation whether it’s complete or notbut all its gonna do is leave you withmore questions than answers so that dayin 2012 I knew there was a SWAT job thatwent out my husband was actually deaddown by the Jersey Shore with his boathe was fishing that day he got the callto come in and and when aerial shots ofthe scene came out I saw my husband’struck with his little boat on thebackground and like wow okay he’s therenah he’s still there I think and I’mwatching the news as the scene isunfolding doing exactly what I tellpeople not to do of course how can youit’s like a like a moth to light eye andI couldn’t pull myself away from thetelevision he and my husband had been ondozens of SWAT calls but something feltdifferent about this oneI worried I was so horrified that todaywas gonna be the day my husband wasgonna have to kill someone and he wasgonna have to kill a fellow cop and Icouldn’t get that out of my head I hadtwo kids at the time I had to kind ofsend them downstairs you do your ownthing you’re you’re kind of on your owntonight and I was upstairs in thebedroom door closedwatching the news every different anglethat I could on the phone talking andtexting with people I didn’t want totext him I figured he had bigger thingson his mind I didn’t want to text any ofhis coworkers I didn’t want to text anyfellow snipers that I knew I felt reallyreally helpless and that’s justsomething that stuck with me fortunatelyenough the end of the situation it endedwell with no injuries subject in custodyno shots fired and but again that’sthat’s weight that I carried with methat realization that understanding wehave a job to do and we have a communityto protect and there are someunfortunate circumstances that we mayhave to encounter I started to worryabout what our life was gonna be likeafter tonight if he had to shoot thisguy is he gonna start with withnightmares with behavioral changes witheating changes you know or how are thekids gonna look at us is it gonna affectthem is it gonna affect our marriage ourday to day life our careers our pensionsit was it was a really traumatizingevent not so much for him believe it ornot he was seeing righted himself withit but for me as a police spouse Ireally struggled with it oh yeah you ohyou have almost too much knowledge inyour head you know that can just bangaround and torture you as the situationunfolds so it’s almost better to be aspouse that doesn’t doesn’t know beingin ins and outs you know yeah I havethat little you know crazy crazy youknow lady mentality to him every once ina while I I can do I can do imagine theworst oh yeah absolutelythe um I wanted to ask you about thatthat that story you told about the k-9officer that was shot in the head iseerily similar to what happenedon Cape Cod just over a year a coupleyears ago Sean Gannon was a k-9 officerhe would he was shot in the headsame it was the same same scenariothat’s and the weirdest thing about itis you told that story I before thepodcast I was on my macbook and Ithought I knew Sean he was a coupletowns away from me when I worked and Ithought I’d known him but I wasn’t sureand on my I message on my eye on my iMacI guess it um catalogues all yourmessages forever on mine anyways and itjust popped his message popped up thatwe had texted in 2015 about some stuffand I was like oh my gosh that’s how Iknow Sean Gannon we talked about thisand then he was he was the guy theofficer that was that was shot the headthe k-9 officer that did that just thatjust I just connected that right now isthis like you said knowing the peopleinvolved is crazyit is and actually since you did mentionmention the officer’s name I think it’simportant I don’t mention bad guys namesbecause I don’t think that they deservetheir information to be put out therebut this was officer Brad Fox and he wasjust he was a decorated veteran and adecorated officer his dog had been shottoo but the dog survived it was it’sjust been yeah it was a difficult timefor all of us and you’re talking thiswas well I can tell you that it wasSeptember 13 2012 so that same year thatmy husband had the this night for callbut it yeah those things stick with youand they kind of frame the way you seethe world was the outcome with thesuspect huh you know what I don’t know Idon’t remember I feel like my my memoryI have a lapse I can see myself sittingin the car I can I can see patrol comingin I can see the officers coming in andthen I I remember the funeral and thenews coverageall of the police officers and all ofthe k9 officers and all of the dogs ohthere were so many dogs that showed upoh I’m sure those reasons with the badguy hmm Beth it’s a I feel like that’san important part of the story I’ll haveto go back and look that up yeah I’mkind of looking it up right now they Idon’t really see a lot of what happensit’s just it’s it’s a you know justicein the police officers of Mines isn’tserved very often and I was just curiousif this guy he’s probably still inprison if he’s still alive but I wasjust curious about that yeah one wouldhope you’d hope so yeah you know and andnot not that claim to be vindictive oranything but it’s that that’s someonewho’s dangerous hmm oh yeah yeah I don’tevil out there that needs to be punishedfor sure absolutely Beth can you tell ussome positive or uplifting aheartwarming yes a situation from yourcareer with a deer a deer that livedwell well I’ll say most of them inencounter me do live because well I’mgonna kick him in the butt and say guygo on get out of here okay I’m gonna saypositive and uplifting happens for meevery day and here’s why before youthink of me as just Susie sunshine youknow rainbows and unicorns I get to workwith juveniles so my current my rank isdetective my assignment is a schoolresource officer which means I’m in fulluniform I’m assigned to a schooldistrict I have an office inside ourlocal high school I work Monday toFriday 7:00 to 3:00 but in theory I Ikind of work around the clock I’mresponsible for K through 12 in myschool district and my job is to buildpositive relationships with my kids andI take ownership of 4,500 families whoare students within my school districtstheI’m responsible for so the schoolbuildings and the school property havebecome my beat that’s my area that is myterritory those are my kids and I takeownership of them so over the last fiveyears that I’ve assumed this role I’vebuilt relationships with kids and ittakes time because kids don’t like copsand cops don’t like kids and what Iexplained to them is that like hang on asecond like I’m not encountering kids ona Friday night when they’re drunk andthey’re sitting on the curb and theyknow their rights and you can’t talk tome and do you know who my father isno like I’m encountering them whenthey’re comfortable when they’re ontheir home turf when they’re on theirnorm in school and they might not liketheir classes and their homeworkassignments but it’s where they feelcomfortable so I spend my time buildingrelationships with kids and what I’vefound over the years is that I havebuilt some solid positive relationshipswith kids who have no business likingpolice and what I mean by that is thatsome of these kids have some of the mostdifficult and traumatizing and unfairbackstories because of poor parentingbecause of poor circumstances because ofthings that are outside of their controlthat I become a constant in their lifeand I’m someone that they can trust I’msomeone that they know I put myself outthere and and be vulnerable with themfiguratively speaking also that theyknow that I’m here to cheer them on so Iwas standing in one of the main hallwaysone day as class was changing and if youcan imagine in a high school at aprimary intersection there’s like 1300it grows sweaty bodies all trying topush past each other everybody at theclass and there’s about you know of the1400 there’s about 75 who don’t reallycare about going to class and they’renot in a hurry and they’re kind oflollygagging around Beth can I ask you aquestion before you continue is this yousaid K to 12 is this all one facility nobut in our school districts the elementone of our elementary schools our middleschool and our high school are all onthe samecampus oh great there are three separatebuildings but in theory I could walkeasily between them I don’t I Drive mypolice car but but I couldn’t easilywalk between the three buildings that’sgonna be neat yeah yeah so I have tofigure out how to be in three places atone timegot it are you the are you the schoolresource officer for the district I am Iam V so you said there are 1,400students there are 1,400 students in ourhigh school there’s about a thousand inour middle school and I couldn’t tellyou how many there are in our in the theone elementary school that I’mresponsible for there are also threeother elementary schools in a separatejurisdiction but that feed into ourschool district hmm I can clarify likethat in a little bit too if you need tobut that’s just a little bit more of thefractured nature of Pennsylvania no it’sinteresting because there can’t alignwe’re talking before this the the schoolschool police things handed handle sodifferent nationally you know like someEurope police officer and a detectivefor the town assigned to the schooldistrict which is kind of like we usedto deal with in Massachusetts but outhere in California can don’t you guyshave your own you have your own likepolice force that the school school hasits own police force right yeah what LAUnified has their own Police Departmentso those are what would be considered aschool resource I don’t I don’t knowthat la LAUSD school police actually hasschool resource officers but they havetheir own their own separate PoliceDepartment from LAPD so yeah I don’tknow how they do that on each individualeach individual school but yeah separatePolice Department altogether yeah I’mvery familiar with it I know some of thehigher-ups with the Los Angeles schoolpolice because we’re all trained underthe umbrella of Nasra the NationalAssociation of school resource officersand our mantra is that we want to havesafer schools and safer kids so we havea very specific mission and a veryspecific agenda so that we cansupplement the educational environmentbuilding positive relationships so thatthere longterm and ultimately have a positiveeffect on the community andrelationships in general that’s it Imean I have a question about the aboutyour how you responded to calls at theschool like a hot like a you know Godforbid active shooter when I when I leftmy department they were talking aboutputting long guns in the school so thatlike the officers could have access likeso they didn’t have to like same it wassame idea outdoor campus differentbuildings but their their ar-15 was intheir cop car and if there’s an activeshooter in the school that’s not goingto be real doable you’re gonna be stuckthere with your sidearm do you do guysor can you even talk about it I don’tknow can do you guys have long guns inthe school or do you have one in youroffice or all right well see how I don’twant to be cryptic but at the same timeI also don’t want to appear to be intactachill I would say that that’s really upto mutual agreement between the townshipand the school district as far as whatthey feel comfortable with the safetyand security of it how you can ensurethat the school resource officer thatthe office is secure I I’m in fulluniform at all time so I always have mypistol with me my long gun is in my caroutside of the building and I can tellyou that I don’t plan to leave mybuilding if there is an active shooterso the the possibility of my leaving thebuilding to go out grab a long gun andcome in back inside is not particularlyrealistic okay yeah that just popped inmy head because they were reallydebating that and I’m sure like you canimagine the issues they’re like wellhow’s it going secured does it staythere in the weekend you know we’rewho’s gonna have access the OP you knowit’s the schools get very jumpy when itcomes to guns that aren’t attached to aperson right right and and even andthat’s making the assumption that theschool is okay with guns to begin withsometime is paving the way to bring aschool resource officer in is adifficult road because there’s thisperception that a police officer has theability to arrest and therefore that’sthe only thingthat we do and one of the one of themissions of of nazarone and of schoolresource officers is to combat thatperception that just because we have theability to doesn’t mean that that’s allwe do on the flip side that’s actuallythe last thing that we would want to dowe’re not there to pump kids into theschool-to-prison pipeline we’re notthere to criminalize juvenile missbehaviors yet is it is a kid stealing apack of cookies from the cafeteria acrime well yeah that’s theft but doesthat mean that we’re gonna arrest themno it doesn’t mean that you’re talkingwith reasonable people who want to findout the why behind this behavior becausesometimes making an arrest isn’t goingto solve the problem and it’s not goingto negate the the the why behind it doyou feel like the school system I usedto see this battle go on with our schoolresource officer sometimes we’re likeyou said something like that it can bedealt with a different way a creativepunishment or whatever but keep the lawout of it but when it is actually timewhen you see something and you go okaythis needs to be enforced do you getpushback from the school do you get theprincipal saying we don’t wanna we don’twant to move forward that this but thenyou’re feeling that you’re feeling thatyou’re a separate entity at that pointyou’re like alright well wait a secondI’m the law you’re the school I’m stillvery much a cop so do they give you freerein to just you know press charges onstudents or do they get very involved mepersonally yes I have free rein and thereason why I have free rein is at numberone I’m a reasonable person I can I cansee the greys it isn’t just black andwhite I’ve established myself in theschool district as being very studentfocused and student centric I’m veryvery reticent to arrest if it’ssomething that doesn’t necessarily servea purpose if there are otherinterventions that we can put into placeif an arrest needs to happen because weneed to have a student removed from theenvironment a hundred percent then thatthat’s the route that you take if astudent needs to be arrested because weneed to have them supervised by JuvenileProbation and we need to have otherinterventions put into place like theacademy aftercare who will drive to akid’s house get that kid out of bed andbring them to school and then take themhome and put themback inside their home then that’s whatneeds to happen if these kids don’t havea strong family background or supportivenetwork then they might need externalsupports but yeah my am I gonna arrest akid you know every time there’s somepushing and shoving do I want to presscharges oh okay well I get that that’s areally emotional decision let’s let’shang on a secondyou know what is that gonna accomplishwhat is that gonna prove you know andonce we can get to the bottom of this Imean as touchy-feely as it sounds youknow I’m all about holding kidsaccountable but arrest isn’t the onlyway to hold kids accountable I think itgets very political as well becauseyou’re you’re dealing with differentdifferent thought processes with regardto the political atmosphere in thecountry I recall I think was maybe toolate 2017 early 2018 my daughter in lawat the time was at the time she was aelementary school teacher in New Mexicoand there had been some incident likewithin that week where she and she wasgoing to have a music presentation forlike 400 students and their parents andshe this incident happened in New Mexicoclose to where they were her school wasand so she she told the principal heylet’s is it okay if we have you know apolice officer just kind of on campusduring the president during the duringthe performance and she was told nobecause it might offend some of the someof the parents so they would they didn’tassign a police officer to that eventhough it was a heightened state ofsecurity at the time and she was told nobecause of the politics of it or the youknow yeah it looks like and that’sthat’s that can be a difficult hurdle toovercome when I assume the role ofschool resource officer I spent a lot ofmy downtime and my off-timemaking sure that I was visible at theschool and not just for the the eventswhere you might suspect there would be aproblem yeah like a football game orbasketball tournament but I came to someof the chorus events I came to the ArtShow I came to the plays to encounterparents whose kids might never get introuble so they might never encounter apolice officer they had seen and heardmy name because it was important to letthe community know that I was going tobe there but until they actually got tomeet me until they saw the smile on myface until they saw that I was genuinelyinvested in their kids success then thatthat made it an easier transition andthat’s so critical to the success of theschool resource officer position becausethe last thing you want is that cop withthe mirrored sunglasses with that closedbody language standing with their armsfull you know telling you that you haveto respect my authority and you’resetting that program up for failureyou’re you’re creating a divide betweenthe police and the community and allyou’re doing is is continuing thatadversary that adversarial relationshipwhere in turn I’m only one set of eyesif there’s a problem in my school I needeveryone to be aware of what’s happeningaround them so that they can help mebecause I can only be in one place atone timeyou know despite security cameras ineffect I’m not sitting in my officelooking at security cameras all day I’mwalking around and buildingrelationships so that when we do have anactual honest-to-goodness real-dealintruder coming to our school like wehad last year students ran up to me andthey’re like officer bath officer Brettthere was a guy on the bus he came intothe school I said okay great you’ve gotmy cell phone number right okay whichway did he go I’m gonna go look for himyou call me if you see him and not aminute or so later they called meofficer bath up in the circle gym lobbycome running back up there he is thereis and you know we were able to I wasable to to get to the intruder get himout of the building from beginning toend this incident was three minutes longbut it was my students who feltcomfortable to say something to me whohad access to me 24/7 they all have mycell phone number they call me and textme at all hours of the day and night allyear long oh my gosh that would drive mecrazy it does but when you’re investedand when you love what you do you askedme about about an uplifting and a heartexperience when my kids text me becausethey have a question or a problem wherethey tell me I can’t talk to my guidancecounselor but I trust you when they cometo me crying if they want to hurtthemselves if they’re worried aboutsomeone if they find a threat on socialmedia and they come to me that’sheartwarming that’s great absolutelyI think that’s part of that humanizingthe badge they don’t just see you as anenforce of the law but they see you as asafe place sure that’s great yeah that’slike hopefully gone are the days ofparents marching their kids into thepolice law being goingcan you send a cop out here to Yelp myyeah that’s just what we want to do havetheir children hated that that I getthat request quite regularly and I thinkit doesn’t work that way but I tell mykids not gonna lie to you if you mess upI’m gonna tell you you messed up and I’mgonna tell you what the reality is andI’ll tell you what a lot of times I hearfrom parents how much their kids respectme and how they don’t want to disappointmethat means a lot to me then I’m doing myjob I’m trying to build relationships Iwant to get your kid to their version ofsuccess and it’s not gonna be the samefor each kid and they’re not gonna havethe same path to get from their startpoint to that success but my job is tofigure out what their success is how toget them there and then just kind ofmake sure that I’m the bumpers that theycan bounce off of to so that they canhave this forward progress to get totheir success that’s good for you that’sa really tricky at one point our schoolresource officer was not around she wasout injured so whoever is in that sectorof town would kind of walk into the highschool and walk around for a couplehours see if there’s anybody any casesyou know whatever go through thecafeteria it’s a hard job yeah it’s it’stricky I remember one one case ourschool resource officer was dealing withand this is just maybe because it’s it’sMassachusetts law but this couple wasdating in the high school she was 16 hewas 18 they were sexually active rightthey broke up there was a big fight hehad posted pictures of her on socialmedia the parents got involved theparents want charges pressed they’re allover the school resourceofficer and guess what in Massachusetts16 is the age of consent so they werelegally having sex but guess who butguess what child pornography is 18 underso he was having sex with her that’sfine but having pictures of her nakedfelony and it went on from there and itwas like you know what this rat’s nestis this unraveling people are its youhave to be a real diplomat with yourpolice work in those schools it’s it’strue and we have similar laws inPennsylvania and it is difficult andwhat do you do when you have I’ll justI’ll put it out there as this what doyou do when you have a 15 year old girlwho’s willingly and voluntarily takingnaked pictures and videos of herself andsending them to her you know 17 year oldboyfriend she’s creating anddistributing pornography she’s inpossession of it and she’s disseminatingit and but he’s the one that shows it tohis friends he’s the one that posted ona snapchat story and blows up and andwho do you go after and why would you goafter this this poor young girl likewhat uh I’d be afraid of the dad in thatsituation you know there was one time inthe 80s I had come across this kidexcuse me and he was about 15 or so andhe was a little street smart little guyand we’re and he was we got into littleconversation with him and he said yeahwell my girlfriend’s 14 and yeah we havesex all the time and I said aren’t youaren’t you concerned about having sexfor the fourteen-year-old this kid goeswell I’m 15 what they can do to me soyou know it’s it’s one of those thingswhere kids are pretty savvy when itcomes to these things but thispornography law that’s different yeahthat’s right yeah yeah hey Beth I didsomething kind of different for this onejust died just to try it I on socialmedia I put some question I put that wewere having doctor Detective SRO bestSanborn on the show and I put out thereif anybody had any questions for you andsome people have responded so were youare you game to answer a couplequestions oh my gosh I would love thatthat’d be fantastic awesome let’s seehere this one says ask her how this thisis from Tommyask her how the students at the schoolor schools she’s SRO at perceived lawenforcement and if she sees a glimmer ofhope for the youth finally beingreceptive of law enforcement and not sodismissive of blanketing of all cops asbeing bad okay yeah that’s I mean Tommythat’s a really great point and that’sone of that’s one of my primaryobjectives as a school resource officeris to bridge that gap between kids andlaw enforcement what I need them to seeis that really believe it or not despiteagain my demeanor and and my attitudeand and if you see me sometimes I’ve gotmy hair down and a funky manicure and ahundred nail rings on my fingers likethere’s more good guys out there thanthere are bad guys and you might catchsomebody on an off day you might catchthem on a bad day but but just as muchas kids are intimidated by cops cops areintimidated by kids nobody knows whatthe other is thinking and if I canbridge that gap if I can let them knowlike hey listen you’re a stranger tothem they don’t know what you’rethinking what you’re doing what you’replanning and and you two are startingoff on a bad footI said listen the cops in this communitygenuinely cared they’re good guys we’renot we’re not getting charged and beingbrought up with with excessive forceconcerns like we genuinely care we workin a great area and and we want ourcommunity to be successful so yeah if ifone of my jobs and one of my objectivesis to improve relationships between kidsin the community that’s fantasticbecause they’re gonna grow up andthey’re gonna share those stories youknow I say the worst thing that I couldpossibly hear is when a teacher or a kidor a staff member or parent comes to meand they’re like you know I I just hadthis really bad encounter with a with alocal police officer if regardless ofwhat the circumstances were I said thatyou know it really it hurts my heart Isaid because that means that I have tohave 20 positive encounters with mycommunity to offset that story becauseyou’re gonna go around you’re gonna tellall of your friends what a jerk that copwas but you’re probably not gonna tellthem that whenyou walked into the office and youappeared to be you know sick or runnynose that I and I didn’t then I ran outI got you a box of tissues in a bottleof water and said I hope you feel betterare you gonna share that story andprobably not but it’s gonna take twentyof those little things to kind of offsetthat negative perception of police ofcourse yeah heat Tommy has a follow-upquestion he’s a youth leader at hischurch and he’d like to know what areashe should focus on within the communityto help unify and bridge the gap betweenyouth and law enforcement it takes timethere’s no quick and there’s no easyanswer maybe invite please to his churchto function I think that would be Ithink it would be fantastic if you ifyou look unfortunately if you look atthis big picture of you know police ofrace relations you’re you’re startingoff too big and too broad look at yourimmediate community if he is oh if he isis invested in a local community get thelocal law enforcement in his communitypick one person I mean heck if you haveto start with the chief you start withthe chief if it starts with patrol itstarts with patrol it’s easy to say thatyou dislike a group whatever group thatmaybe it’s more difficult to say thatyou dislike someone when you get to meetsomeone in that group and you can put aname and a face and a personality tothat to that person you can say all youwant that you hate cops it’s gonna bedifficult to hate me when you meet meand if I can show that I’mrepresentative of police as a whole thenyou’re going to be more apt to likepolice so for Tommy and his communityabsolutely get one of your local leadersinvolved bring someone in from theschool but it’s going to take time asfar as building relationships with thekids it might just be lots of repeatedhi how are you get a good answerturn and walk away just beautifulpositive encounters yeah you’re notgonna be best friends at your firstencounter if they’re wearing a localsweatshirt or t-shirt or you can connectit to college sports or you know avacation destination or somewhere thatyou’ve been if you have a little storyto share start by telling a littlesomething about yourself don’t pry intotheir lifesay hey Oh Miami I took a great vacationto Miami – and we ate at this awesomerestaurant if you ever go back there tryit turn around walk away if they’rereceptive to having a conversationthat’s awesome if not don’t push it butthe next time they see you maybe you canbuild on that great advice and we had atour church we had uhm for trunk-or-treatwe invited the police to come and one ofour members is a cop and he brought hiscruiser and the whole night kids crawledin the cruiser and he gave him badgesand it was it was just a whole love festfor the police so that kind of workedout for us absolutely Oh as manypositive encounters that you can withthe community you know it’s fantastic wetalk about the the old days of policingand how how when the foot cop started todrive around in cars and the windowswere rolled up how it kind of put thisdivide between police and the communityit’s getting back out there and notbeing afraid to walk into your storesand not being afraid to go I’m notsuggesting you go grocery shopping whileyou’re that but you know what walk inhere stores and interact with people getface to face and and know that you’regoing to have a parent pull their kitaside and say if they you don’t eat yourvegetables that officer over there isgonna arrest you and take you away havea response for that not just somethingstrewn with expletives no use that as anopportunity to go over make a goodrelationship tell the parent no that’snot what we do we don’t want your kidsto be afraid of uswe want them to know that they can cometo us if they need help or anything andyou know what maybe by that can a candybar leave it on a positive note and I’mnot talking about doing something likethis for like a social media flash likewe’re not invested in our community sothat we can get this viral videohey listen those stories are awesome butthose stories happen all day every daywith policing we’re all trying to dothings that are positive for ourcommunity I don’t need to be on Facebookto know that I’m making a positivedifference if you can talk to a kid andleave them with a high-five or a fistbump or whatever they feel comfortablewith or asking them if they’re excitedfor for New Year’s Eve and are theygonna get to stay up till midnight thoseare positive things don’t leave themwith the fear that you’re going toarrest them if they don’t eat theirvegetables tonightabsolutely the time for a couple moreyeah quick okay Rob says and you weretalking earlier about kind of repairingthe damage that a few bad apples coulddo with relationships in the policecommunity Rob wants to know what’s youropinion on the video of the SRO bodyslamming that student how did you reactto that uh North Carolina so I wassitting on the sofa at home and I’mtelling you when that news story broke Ifeel like you could hear a collective ohnot me entire country as everyonewatched that I don’t know thecircumstances behind it I don’t knowwhat was said I don’t know what washappening what I can tell you is thatthere had better be some awfully goodexcuse for it and even that excuse isn’tgood enough did you get razzed at all atthe school or your kids like both throwme down because my kids and my peopleknow me but here’s the thing I can’t forthe life of me imagine what couldpossibly have happened to result withthat I mean what ends on is oh yeahtwice and then and then to drag himalong now here’s the don’t so I hearthat story and I go this is gonna soundterrible and I’m like oh man Ari well itwas a deputy I thank goodness it wasn’ta school resource officer really andthen and then fast-forward about 30seconds and like this deputy was aschool resource officer and I thought itis so essential Nazz row is so veryspecific and we are so very proactivewith training properly with ensuringthat we have the proper skills and theproper tools to do our job and whatmakes you think that you’re not you knowwhat I’m almost left speechless becauseit is so outside of the norm but theproblem is is that that story gets shownand now people are like school resourceofficers I don’t want any kids near mycops there’s like there’s an estimated20,000 of us across the country we’reworkingeight hours a day we’re workingextracurricular activities we’re comingback at night we’re cheering on our kidsand weekend’s and those positive storiesdon’t make the news unless someone’sbuying a bike for someone or donating anorgan or something unusual like that butgoodness graciouswhat an awful atrocious example to besaid and it really sets us back but theonly thing that I can say about that isthat is not the norm that is an unusualanomaly and goodness gracious shouldthat never be repeated react like thatthink about like two steps forward onestep back and then you think you’remaking some progress you know and thensomething happens and then all policeofficers are painted with the same brushand you just you got to put your handover your over your head just go oh mygosh here we go you know it’s just ruinseverything don’t we have one of my firstweeks in the school you know I’m walkingdown a hallway and there’s two Caucasiangirls wearing their their black yogapants and Uggs and they walk to ittowards me down a hallway and they puttheir hands up and they go hands updon’t shoot and I looked at them oh mygosh oh really come on ladies I said ifthat hurts my heart you’re kidding me Isaid I’m just as intimidated by you asyou are of melisten forty-four years old walking intoa high school cafeteria with 300 kidssitting around you don’t think therecord scratched across and likeconversations stopped and looked at meand I’m like do I have any buddies is myzipper up like please don’t trip andfall but don’t fart don’t throw up don’tpass out you walk in with your baseballcap sideways what’s up poems here torelate to you and nowadays kids don’thave any problem saying hey what’s upman what’s up with that you know and andkind of fronting you off in front ofeverybody absolutely it’s a yeah theylike to put on a show in front of theirpeers and it’s really understanding it’sfunny it’s it’s understanding how theteen brain works what adolescence meanswhat they’re going through and and beingable to if you can’t relate to it atleast being able to understand it Bethwe have one more question here okay Seanasks how do you fit that mini titleon your business card I did treat myselfthis year I bought myself a new deskplate I was very proud of it it is kindof neat to have a whole bunch of titlesassociated with it but the importantthing is that I show how much I valueeducation how much I’m invested in my inmy career it really it identifies Who Iam and I know you should really be ableto separate that but I don’t I live it Ilive my life as an SRO as a policeofficer is teaching my kids to think ofothers before themselves do the rightthing to be polite man if I could bemanners police they’d be awesome if Icould get a title for it I’d add it tomy business card but I just want Peteagain it sounds so silly this might notbe your typical cop response but I justwant people to be nice to each other tobe kind to each other because it’s justit’s distressing to see what theaftermath is and what the result is andand I think people are too quick to towant to be victims and to look forsomething to claim to be victims and andI would love to be able to take thattake that away from them so that we canreally focus on like on the true victimsso that we can really help each othercome together as a community to buildeach other up and if there’s a title forthat you let me know about it soundslike you were the archetype the perfectschool resource officer almost you dudeI mean got your doctorate even III wouldprobably beg to differwell now that’s not true I come in butno I I am really invested in it I spentI spent three years of my life livingeating and breathing full resourceofficers so that I could so that I couldhelp my communities I’d like to to tryto facilitate meetings with policedepartments and school districts to leteach one know the benefits of what itcan do for their community and what oneshould expect from the other because Iwholeheartedly believe in it so when Ispend three years researchingPennsylvania school resource officersthat’s where my heart and soul is asSteve yes there is one question youmissed ken from Washington had aquestion oh yes go ahead Ken thecuttings are callingolly there’s a calling question andthis Steve and I talked about thisearlier and I want to get your take onit in California there’s a new law thatit says a new law bans willful defiancesuspensions in grades K through 8 nowI’m not sure if you’re familiar withthis I’m I’m sorry I’m not I would loveto hear more it says the story goes onand it’s from an NBC affiliate but itsays California students in kindergartenkindergarten through eighth grade can nolonger be suspended for Wolffe willfuldefiance under a new law it makes itillegal for public and charter schoolsjust suspend students for willfuldefiance according to the schooldistrict willful defiance is defined asdisrupting school activities orotherwise refusing to follow validauthority of school personnel so if a ifa if a teacher tells the student to dosomething they just tell them you knowgo pound sand that’s willful defiancebut they’re saying that this one thingthe senator that wrote it she saysending willful defiance suspensions willkeep kids in school where they belongand where teachers and counselors canhelp them thrive just trying to get yourtake on that you know what I agree Ireally do I agree I mean listen I Idon’t get involved in discipline as aschool resource officer schooldiscipline is a school issue I don’twant to be associated with giving outdetentions I that that’s not my purviewit’s not where I belonghowever when you have students withhigher suspension rates and more timeaway from school first of all what whatgood is coming of it so you’ve got a kidwho’s at hometheir parents are probably at work whatso what are they doing all day long arethey playing on their Xbox are they outabout wandering the community is thereany benefit to the community is thereany benefit to and studies have shownand it forgive me I can think of theirnames but not a lot of the details ofthe study that exclusionary disciplinethen leads to bigger systemic problemsthroughout life and into the communityyou’ve got people who who then showgreater likelihoodof arrest and encountering the justicesystem because of higher suspensionrates so if you’ve got a kid who’s beingdefiant who isn’t following instructionswho isn’t who isn’t behaving and fallingin line sending them home to be bythemselves I don’t really see how thatis a benefit to that child or how itcorrects that behavior perhaps it’s anissue of a problem at homemaybe it’s an issue of medication or amedical diagnosis and listen I am NOTquick to die to suggest a diagnosis ormedication because I feel every kid inthe country has a 504 an IEP or sometype of accommodation but what I amsuggesting is that maybe try a differentintervention it may be that that childneeds a different class a differentteacher a one-on-one aid maybe thatchild isn’t fit for a traditionalschooling environment maybe they’re muchbetter suited to technology are workingwith their hands or maybe they’re moreapt to do better in a cyber environmentthere are so many different avenues thatpeople can take the work force anddoesn’t look like it did in the 1950sand 60s and 70s but education is reallyslow to catch up to that like we’reliving in a time where the workforceisn’t necessarily going into an officeMonday to Friday 8:00 to 9:00 to 5:00the workforce is changing so maybe thattraditional schooling doesn’t fit thatchild maybe we need to get parents moreinvested to work out like what type ofkid is this what do they respond to andwhat can we do to help motivate them ina positive way again I know Susiesunshine rainbows and unicorns Bethyou’re not saying I kind of agree withya to a kid sending him homethat’s not punishment I don’t mind yeahpunish him but do it at the schoolmakers go to Saturday school or stayafter that’s a punishment to a kid goinghome especially if he’s a Lasky kid andthe parents aren’t around it’s like ohit’s party time getting to my parentsbooze and do whatever else in theneighborhood so yeah punish him atschoolsure absolutely things like an in-schoolsuspension where they have access toteachers and the learning environmentyou know having them spend the day inthewell maybe not the library that can be aparty place sometimes too but keepingkids in that environment not disruptingtheir norm those are all things that caninterfere with behavior I mean anyonewho works in a school environment I’lltell you the kids start to get reallyreally crazy right before a break andreally and right after a break and partof it is that their norm is disruptiveit’s that not waking up at the same timeevery day going into that sameenvironment walking that same routegoing to the same class so yeah you wantto put a kid in in-school suspensionthey’ve got access to their teachersthey might not want to work but at leastthey have access to it you have thosepeople those caring professionals thoseteachers who were there and who are ableto help correct that behavior hey I knowteachers that get crazy before breakingduring breaks so the kids are definitelygonna be a follow-up question that Ihave is that you know back in the daypolice officers were charged with withenforcing the laws that’s what all theydid and now you’re in a kind of adifferent place Beth where it’s a yeahthough you were a lot of different hatsso so take the same scenario where achild is defined in school and then itbecomes violent where the where thechild lashes out or they strike ateacher and and now the school resourceofficer is called in do you do you tryand get more into the situation to findout the behind the scenes stuff or I doit and it and what you’re suggesting isa situation that I’m not all thatuncommon that is not all that uncommon Ihave I have kids who are you knowproblems at school and they’re alsoproblems in the community and again whatthat takes is it takes a lot of time tobuild those foundational relationshipsso that listen I have a kid he’s gotbehavioral issues and health flip-out inthe school and he’ll tell a teacher togo pound sand but he’ll use differentlanguage and he’ll flip over a desk andstorm out of the room and all of asudden I turn around and look up andhe’s standing in the doorway of myoffice all red-faced huffin and puffinfit fists clenched and shoulders up andI’m like ohhi he’s like I just can’t be here and Iwas like man good on you for coming tosee me like that’s awesome come on inhere come hang out with me for a coupleminutes let’s calm things down I meanand that’s listen that is a win-win-winall around you know another time I had agirl she had very few coping skillsit was unfortunate she’s 15 years oldshe’s a foster kid she’s a product ofthe Philadelphia Department of Healthand Human Services where she’s kind ofbounced around from foster home tofoster home and doesn’t know how tosurvive in a suburban high schoolenvironment she couldn’t go to chemistryclass and algebra two she didn’t knowhow to function in those classes she’dhave a foundation for it and to boot shewas caught up in the drama she wascaught up in her life that she used tolive in Philadelphia so when she gotangry at someone when she was crossingthrough an intersection in the schoolwith 1,400 other sweaty bodies andsomeone bumped into her because you’regonna have that she dropped her bag downand was ready to fight where is the restof the school community under those samecircumstances would turn around and gooh sorry and continue on their way soshe’s flipping out she’s ready to gohands-on with this girl and when theschool administrators who were the firstto intervene couldn’t get anywhere withit they called me over the radio I cameup and I said listen and it and it tookme say listen and making eye contactwith her and I I didn’t say listen Iaddressed her by my name because I knewher name again part of a result of longterm positive interactions with her andI was able to de-escalate with her tokeep her from making that poor decisionto keep her from going hands-on and belike come on you want to go flip out youwant to scream and curse and flip thingsover come down to my office do it in myoffice it’s a safe place to do itnobody’s gonna get hurt and I’ll cleanup afterwards there’s no big deal hmminteresting I think that I think thesystem is overburdened and there’s toomany students to teach her the ratiosoff and then there there’s just someit’s just a huge huge and there could betons of different answers and reasonsand I don’t know that anybody huhto individually take or I don’t thinkthe resources are rail to each studentto fix the problem that probably shouldstart at home I agree and it’s funnyI’ve looked at educational models acrossdifferent countries and like what worksand what doesn’t work and and I reallystress the importance of parentalengagement you know and I say that kindof joking in the back of my head too Ican’t tell you the number of times I’veactually kind of pushed my own kidsaside because I’ve gotten a work call oroverworked text outside of my normalhours and I’m like not sweetie you’refine there’s there’s food in therefrigerator just go take care of it andand I know that my 13 year old daughterwho’s smart as a whip is gonna say howcome you’re paying more attention tothose kids than you are to me and I andI’m just gonna have to hold my head downand tell her that she’s right sometimesoh it really is important I see how hardour teachers work I see how they are sooverwhelmed and how they care but theyget so frustrated and they put in somuch work for these kids from 7 a.m. to3 p.m. and sometimes what happens isthat once 3 o’clock rolls around andtheir students go home there’s no one tocontinue that support there’s no one tocontinue to reinforce those values andit’s almost like 7 o’clock comes and allof the work done the day before kind ofwashed away and it’s stressing but thenbut then you’ve got other sets ofcircumstances where you’ve got a reallystrong family environment you’ve got areally good background and you have agreat support system but there’s stillsome failure along the way andunfortunately nobody wears a sign to letyou know where that weak link in theirchain is mm-hmm hey Steve before youwrap this up there’s a couple things Iwanted to mention if that’s okay sureone is going back to Beth was talkingabout officer Bradley Fox from PlymouthTownship the one where the officer gotshot in head the follow-up on that isthe guy the the shooter he was aconvicted felon he wasn’t gonna go backto jail so he killed himself oh allright justice justice served there andthen and the last thing before we gois that I wanted to mention that inDecember 2019 Beth won the ugliestswitched sweater contestat her Police Department so manyaccomplishments yeah I mean that’sthat’s really something right and it’sright there it’s part of the news andthat is a it is an ugly sweaterit’s it’s good to know that that youknow some some accolades travel far andwide I actually just got some somereally spectacular news if I could justpromote this for one second as silly asthis is gonna sound but I just found outthat next Friday January 10th I’m gonnabe receiving the Honourable Louis DStefon law enforcement award from theMontgomery County bars or the MontgomeryBar Association in Montgomery CountyPennsylvania here I I just I cannotstress enough how important it is thatthat you love what you do do what makesyou happy and the successes that comefrom that congratulationsI mean it’s gonna rival the ugliestPolice sweater you know I don’t know ifthey overtake that that’s a pretty bighonor right there yeah you could havethe plaque for both of them right on themantel Oh like you jitsu trophies asidelike a come on this is collecting dusthere well I’m gonna print this photo outSteve and I’m gonna put it on my thingspolice C podcast Wall of Fame in myoffice picture of Beth in this sweaterexcellent I love it Beth thank you somuch for coming on the podcast this wasthis is really fun I had a fantastictime I’m truly honored that you guyswanted to talk to me so thank you somuch for thinking to include me honorwas all oursabsolutely alright ma’am will you besafe out there thank you very much youas well thank you[Music]English (auto-generated)

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